How Do You Change Spark Plugs?

[JohnGunn]

John! With all due respect, LIGHTEN UP!!

I doubt very much anyone was showing you any "disrespect." They were simply and informally expressing their opinions. True, there were no kid gloves worn, but this place is pretty informal.

As Anomaly explained, there are many variables. Between different people, there will be many more variables in how they process information, make decisions, even how they think.

You think very differently and methodically along certain planes that may be foreign to many folks on here. I find it fascinating! Your background is fascinating! I think that in small ways you are contributing a lot to this forum and those ways will only get bigger and brighter as you become "better understood" to us. It won't happen overnight though, and it may not always seem perfectly friendly to you (just a guess).

Look up a member named "Bobstadt" and read some of his ramblings. He's another interesting character who strikes me as some old Storytelling Marxist Hippie Wanderer. Unfortunately, I can only take so much of his writing (sorry Bob!). But I do read some of his stuff and he would probably be a hoot to meet in real life.

I hope you don't take offense to my suggestion to lighten up! Keep in mind I was in the Army and everyone busts everyone's balls all the time for anything and everything. Not suitable for all occasions; it's just a different sort of "environment."

Same here. We have a "behavior continuum" and it can be all over the place. Most of it is benign and not intended to be rude.

For that, go to the "Arena."

Karl

You don't have to worry about telling me to lighten up. I'm used to it by now. At one time or another just about every one who's ever known me well enough, including my parents, have told me that. I figure it's because I haven't had enough drugs and alcohol in my life. I'm pretty sure to be at the other end of that spectrum from Bobstadt. My mind is happiest running in overdrive, but not super charged.

I understand completely that there is a "behavior continuum"(I like that term.) established on this site and that my behavior is outside that continuum. My posts are with few exceptions long, and I am well aware that some may hold that against me. After all the education I've lived through, it is just the way my mind works. I could change, but it wouldn't be me. In spite of that, I can completely understand that if you are trying to scan through a thread, coming upon one of my responses can be a big bump in the road. I have the exact same reaction when I'm reading a thread that isn't particularly interesting to me and I come upon a long post. I'll usually persevere, but it isn't always pleasant.

I get the same feeling when I open any book and find page after page of dense text with hardly any white space. Like looking inside a coffin. I feel like closing the coffin as quickly as possible, unless the writer has a lively style of writing about something of interest to me.

That's why I continue writing long. I figure I'm directly addressing my remarks to the member with the problem and assume he would never say to me, "Thanks for the help. I just wish there had been a little less of it." If it looks like the lid of an open coffin to the rest, I figure they can jump over it .

The one thing about this site that holds me is that I am passionately in awe of these cars. I think the designers of our cars found the perfect balance between economy and power and produced the ideal car for most American drivers. Without all the hyped-up advertising pressure on Americans to buy expensive, over-powered cars I truly believe 60 to 70 percent of all cars in this country would be Festivas, Aspires, or cars just like them.

Without my affection for these cars I wouldn't be here at all, and certainly wouldn't have remained in an environment so foreign to me as this. So, the next time you want to tell me to lighten up or want to beat you head to a bloody pulp on my computer screen, repeat to yourself. "He may be a little different, but no one loves our cars more." And then, lighten up.

[JohnGunn]

I'll try to answer in the correct order

• I like Autolite, Motorcraft, NGK. I use copper core plugs but I have used platinums although some say they require more voltage from the coil to fire them.

• I'm quite careful in gapping and usually gap at the small end of the spec so the electrodes will stay in spec as they erode. I.E. - The spec for an EFI B3 is .039-.043 so I typically gap to .039. I use the standard round gapper you can buy for a buck at the counter of about any auto parts store. I NEVER trust the gap straight out of the box. You never know if someone has dropped them. I've seen them with zero gap out of the box

• I don't loosen the plugs before blowing off any dust around the head area. I typically don't blow them off though. I figure it's best to leave that stuff at rest instead of stirring it up. I definitely wouldn't if I planned to wash them down with solvent because I think there would be a (very) small risk of it getting past the threads and into the cylinders. If the engine is dirty enough to require cleaning around the plug holes I usually pressure wash it while the engine is cold, but I'm kinda picky (some say OCD) about engine bay cleanliness... so that's just personal preference.

• I don't clean the hole unless there's an issue with getting the old plug out easily. Running a tap in the hole is a worst case scenario for me because it drops aluminum shavings into the cylinder. If I do HAVE to clean the plug hole I try to use something softer than the aluminum so it would be nylon or brass if I want to get aggressive. Usually a fresh coat of anti-seize will allow the new plug to screw in easily without cleaning the threads in the head

• I ALWAYS apply anti-seize to the threads, especially in engines with aluminum cylinder heads.

• I normally use a torque wrench (Craftsman Digi-Torque) but I will tighten by feel if in a rush. I use the torque spec in the book (can't remember it off the top of my head). I torque EVERYTHING though (even valve cover bolts) because I have a tendency to really crank down on stuff and I've found that I can keep myself in check by using a torque wrench on every fastener. It's easier than drilling and tapping a broken off bolt in my case

• I inspect/replace the wires, cap, and rotor as needed and usually all at the same time since they typically all have the same amount of milage on them. You can clean them if they are just dirty but are in good shape as far as quality

• Personally, I never use the dielectric grease and I've never had an issue without it. But that's just been my personal experience. Others may feel differently

One BIG thing to remember is to never remove the plugs from an aluminum head when it's hot. ALWAYS wait until it's cool to the touch. Aluminum gets soft when it's hot and you risk stripping threads when you remove plugs from a hot aluminum head. Especially if there's no anti-seize applied to them during the previous insulation.

Thanks for the tips, Zanzer. I'm surely not the only one who pays close attention to all of your suggestions.

I never thought much about using dielectric grease, until last year when I helped a friend work on his 89 Toyota pickup based RV. We had a really difficult time getting the wires off the spark plugs. Eventually had to use a cloth rag to get a grip on the boot. I figure some grease would make that less a problem in future.

Good to know about waiting until the engine is cool before removing the plugs. I think I have always done that, but now I'll not leave it to chance.

[JohnGunn]

One thing I'd like to do I read about in some car mag a long time ago:

*When installing plugs, mark the electrode orientation and tighten all the plugs at the same position in each cylinder to promote more consistency.* What do ya'll make of this?

I've read about this before and depending how much boost in mileage it might produce, I could decided to try it.

One thing I will do is mark the position of the negative electrode on the plug so that I can at least see how the plugs turn out without any special treatment.

[JohnGunn]

Safty guy posted a quote from a magazine that read, when installing plugs, mark the electrode orientation and tighten all the plugs in the same position in each cylinder to promote more consistency. what do you make of this? it is called indexing the plugs and you will need a variety of plug washers to make this work. Mark the plug with a magic marker on the porcelain where the electrode is mated to the plug, now you can see where the electrode is facing when it's installed in the engine. for better milage [ maybe 1 mpg ] install plug so that the open end of the plug is facing up, for performance install plug facing down so not to blow out the spark.

Just did a quick calculation of how much you would save going from 42 mpg to 43 mpg if gas were at $4.00 per gallon. In the 30,000 miles that the indexed plugs would be in the car you would save a total of $66.44. A 2 mpg increase would save $132.89, 3 mpg - $199.33. If it took 1 hour of work and required $10 worth of special washers, that would mean your 1 hour's work would earn $56.44, $112.89, or $189.33 for that hour depending on results.

It helps me to turn theoretical savings into real dollars when trying to decided whether an action is worth taking.

[JohnGunn]

Should We Be Using Anti-Seize?

The more I research this "simple" task the less simple it appears. In looking for information on the use of anti-seize compound I came across an interesting post to an equally interesting thread, all pertaining to this "simple" task.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1376508#post1376508

As you can see, this guy has done some valuable research. He doesn't bother to give information about were we could go to check the accuracy of his quotes, but it does have the appearance of authenticity.

I then went to the three Ford Service Manuals I own and the Haynes manual for their advice.


From 1990 Festiva Service Manual:

"Installation
1. Install the spark plugs into the cylinder head and tighten to 14-23 N-m (10-17 lb-ft)"

What could be simpler, but no mention of anti-seize anywhere. (By the way, another complication in this "simple" thread, this torque value has been changed. The new value recommended by Ford appears in the Haynes Manual and my 94 Aspire Service Manual: 15 to 22 ft-lbs.)


From 1992 Festiva Service Manual:

Exactly the same as the above quote from 1990.


From 1994 Aspire Service Manual:

"Installation
1. Install the spark plugs into the cylinder head(6049). Tighten to 20-30 Nm (15-22 lb-ft)."

No mention of anti-seize. Aren't these guys supposed to know a lot more than people like us?


Haynes is a little different.

"Installation
10. Prior to installation, it's a good idea to coat the spark plug threads with anti-seize compound."

They do mention anti-seize and don't even say "lightly coat", which is sometimes done. The illustration they provide shows it being applied with a brush. Hard to imagine they are at all concerned that one might put too much of this wonderful stuff on the threads.

Since I always like to compare what I am told against what I know from my own experience, I took out the Bosch Fusion plugs that failed in my Festiva after only 3,000 miles. I was so sure they could not be failing I switched out most of the EFI related parts before finding that those plugs were, indeed, the cause of the poor performance I was experiencing.

The first thing I noticed was how much anti-seize I had put on them. The washer was actually glued to the base of the plug there was so much. Now, from the post I referenced above I find this quote from the Bosch company:

"Do not use anti-seize. Bosch small engine spark plugs are constructed with a nickel chromium ground electrode for consistent performance and prolonged service life; Nickel-plated rolled threads offer complete anti-seize and corrosion protection."

Makes me wonder if I had not unwittingly brought all the grief associated with the failure of these plugs upon myself. But, it was so "simple". Alway put on anti-seize.

It is my understanding there are three reasons for avoiding the use of anti-seize compound.

1. It will invalidate the torque values given by the manufacturer, since troque values are almost always given for dry threads.
2. The compound can interfere with conductivity necessary for current to flow easily through the plug to the engine.
3. The compound could hinder heat transfer from the plug through the threads to the engine, causing the plug to over heat.

When I bought my Aspire, one of the first things I did was go out and buy a set of NGK Iridium IX plugs. But, before I could install them, I became concerned that the timing belt hadn't been installed correctly and didn't want to put them in until that had been settled. I wanted to wait to install them until I could do so confident I'd not have to take them out over the next 30,000 miles.

I'm still not confident enough of the condition of the engine to want to put them in, so I bought a set of Motocraft plugs to use until things settle down. The NGK plugs are new and expensive so I would expect them to have the nickel plating that prevents seizing, but these Motorcraft plugs bought for $2/each on eBay, are a black color and don't look much like nickel.

Should I follow the consistent advice given by Ford who sold my car and manufactures the plugs, and install the plugs dry, without any lubricant added, or continue a practice that in my mind is of dubious value and could actually do harm?

One last consideration. Permatex makes a copper anti-seize compound that costs a lot more, but that they claim "Provides good electrical conductivity." Now, "good" is not "excellent", but for the cheaper product there is no mention of electrical conductivity at all.

If this copper compound provides good electrical conductivity would that translate into good thermal conductivity as well? If so that stuff might not be so bad. One can always torque for the lowest value and hope it ends up within the safe range.

I welcome comments. As you can tell this "simple" thread has given me lots to think about. I hope at least a few of you haven't been bored to death by it.

[anomoly40]

Id try it without, then every month or so break them loose and retorque them. That way you know they're not seized up.

[JohnGunn]

Id try it without, then every month or so break them loose and retorque them. That way you know they're not seized up.

Thanks for the suggestion, Anomoly40. Instead of wondering what might happen, this way I'll know.

[Zanzer]

Try removing a set of plugs from an engine where they have seized into the head and then report back as to whether you'd recommend it's use or not Also, while doing research on anti-seize, I suggest you do some on galvanic corrosion as well.

I removed a set from a B8 once and was sweating bullets with every turn of the wrench on every single spark plug. And this was with the head removed from the engine and sprayed with copious amounts of PB Blaster on both sides of the threads multiple times during the process. Motoxpress and Lanemeyer14 can attest to this because it was his (lanemeyer's) cylinder head I was working on and he was praying that they would come out without doing permanent damage to the head. Motoxpress was watching and cringing every time I turned a plug. It was a very "touch and go" situation.

I have been using anti-seize for over 18 years and have had zero negative experiences with it. On the contrary, it has saved my *** many times and I've often said to myself "I'm sure glad someone used anti-seize on that". Like any tool, if you use it incorrectly then it can do more damage than good. Sure, if you heavily paint the entire end of the plug including the electrode with it, then I'm sure there will be some ill effects. But, if you only put a light coat on the last 3 threads you may find that you'll thank yourself for it later.


So, which is cheaper? A new head or a bottle of anti-seize?

[kartracer46]

^a new head apparently. but when the threads do come out with the plug I know how to repair those too. Don't like to, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.

[anomoly40]

Easy, get a tap and tap it out for Corvette plugs! Bam! Mo' powa!

[Damkid]

I seen this picture and instantly thought of this thread :lol:

[JohnGunn]

Try removing a set of plugs from an engine where they have seized into the head and then report back as to whether you'd recommend it's use or not Also, while doing research on anti-seize, I suggest you do some on galvanic corrosion as well.

I removed a set from a B8 once and was sweating bullets with every turn of the wrench on every single spark plug. And this was with the head removed from the engine and sprayed with copious amounts of PB Blaster on both sides of the threads multiple times during the process. Motoxpress and Lanemeyer14 can attest to this because it was his (lanemeyer's) cylinder head I was working on and he was praying that they would come out without doing permanent damage to the head. Motoxpress was watching and cringing every time I turned a plug. It was a very "touch and go" situation.

I have been using anti-seize for over 18 years and have had zero negative experiences with it. On the contrary, it has saved my *** many times and I've often said to myself "I'm sure glad someone used anti-seize on that". Like any tool, if you use it incorrectly then it can do more damage than good. Sure, if you heavily paint the entire end of the plug including the electrode with it, then I'm sure there will be some ill effects. But, if you only put a light coat on the last 3 threads you may find that you'll thank yourself for it later.


So, which is cheaper? A new head or a bottle of anti-seize?

Thanks for your time in responding, Zanzer. Always glad to hear what you have to say.

I'm not unaware of the agonies of a seized plug. For years I owned and seriously maintained a 1967 VW Beetle. I loved it for many of the reasons I love Festivas, but the Festiva is by far the better automobile in all respects.

I used anti-seize then and continued its use with all my subsequent rides. But when I read statements by manufacturers, approved, I assume, by a sizable number of competent designers, engineers and lawyers, that I should stop doing what I have been doing for years, there is created in my mind a conflict that I find difficult to accept.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind; I gave that up a long time ago. But I have found it helpful when people who disagree express their honest opinions in an open, relaxed environment, far removed from the normal competitive pressures associated with arguments, where no discussion is complete without there being declared a winner and a looser.

It is in that spirit I ask you how you process statements by people who should know, that are not confirmed by your own experience? What motivation would Ford have to avoid all mention of anti-seize compound in their Festiva/Aspire manuals, and, I presume, avoid using in when manufacturing their cars? What motive could companies like NGK, Champion, Autolite, Denso, and Bosch have in telling its customers to avoid using something you have found so helpful?

Further, in trying to resolve this conflict would you normally be willing to question you own pretty well established opinions. For example, would you be willing to admit that you didn't know how the B8 plugs which were seized had been treated before it came to you. Whether the threads had ever been cleaned or whether it had been grossly over torqued? Or could you tell us, for example, of a case where you personally did all the right things to install a set of plugs and for want of anti-seize compound, the plugs seized?

I've not been able to resolve this conflict to my own satisfaction and would be interested in how you have been able to do so. I can assure you I weight very heavily your opinion in matters automotive, even though, in the end, the resolution I seek will have to be found in my own mind, and, if necessary, by some experiment as was suggested by anomoly40.

[BigElCat]

Zan wrote:

"One BIG thing to remember is to never remove the plugs from an aluminum head when it's hot. ALWAYS wait until it's cool to the touch. Aluminum gets soft when it's hot and you risk stripping threads when you remove plugs from a hot aluminum head. Especially if there's no anti-seize applied to them during the previous insulation."

I never would have thought of this. On the other hand, I usually let the engine cool before messing with any engine work simply to keep my hands from getting burned!

Karl

I'm planning on doing a compression test on my Festiva this weekend. At least one of my manuals states that the motor should be at normal operating temperature before I remove all the plugs. Now I'm wondering if this would be the wrong thing to do? Any suggestions? Do the test cold?

[lessersivad]

I'm throwing in my 2¢ if for no more reason than to say I did.

I use anti-seize on all threaded fasteners I install or r and r.

If there is any aluminum, high heat, or worry of conductivity involved I use the copper. i.e. exhaust, sparkplugs, battery terminals.

If it's a rather normal low heat application I use the silver. i.e. lug nuts/bolts, shock, fender, bumper bolts.

After applying anti-seize I haven't had a problem removing parts even years later.

As a side note. I have taken up using Fluidfilm for a lot of rust preventative and misc. lubrication applications. i.e. hinges, hood and door latches, etc.

Hope this helps.

[Zanzer]

^a new head apparently. but when the threads do come out with the plug I know how to repair those too. Don't like to, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.

Yup, I've had to do a couple too and like you I wasn't crazy about it, but desperate times call for desperate actions. Trying to decide whether or not to re-tap a plug hole with the head on the engine is like trying to decide if you'd rather eat dirt or get hit in the face with shovel LOL

What motivation would Ford have to avoid all mention of anti-seize compound in their Festiva/Aspire manuals, and, I presume, avoid using in when manufacturing their cars? What motive could companies like NGK, Champion, Autolite, Denso, and Bosch have in telling its customers to avoid using something you have found so helpful?

Maybe because car companies are in the business of selling cars (actually parts would be more correct) and spark plug companies are in the business of selling spark plugs. They are only going to give you the minimum amount of information needed to service and repair the car. If they told you how to make parts last twice as long then they would be knocking themselves out of a lot of parts sales. It goes hand in hand with planned obsolescence. They like it when the failure rate is high enough to generate favorable numbers for parts and service, but not so high as to trigger a recall. The same goes for the spark plug manufacturer. Why do you think car dealers give such huge incentives and rebates to get you in the door? When a car manufacturer sells a car they aren't banking on the money from the car they're thinking about parts and labor for service and repairs. Why do you think it's so easy to void a warranty? They don't like to work for free and will look for any reason to void a warranty so you have to pay for the repair instead of them eating it. Ford caught onto the parts game very early on. They COULD have sold you a Mustang GT with 400HP but they realized that the real money was in the parts, so when you bought that new 235HP Mustang you also got a copy of the Ford Performance parts catalog (SVO back in the day) and if you wanted to go faster they had an entire line of Ford built performance parts you could buy straight from the dealer. Why install them on the car when they could sell you the car AND all the nice go-fast parts separately? There's more money to made by double dipping. To paraphrase what one of the members on here quoted after talking to a Ford exec. "Do you know why they quit offering the Festiva? Because there was no money to made off them. Once they left the dealership you never saw them again".

If you use the reasoning that "if it isn't in the service manual it's either bad or doesn't exist" then there's really no reason for a repair section of the forum, just go by what's in the manual. I can give you a long list of things that are in the repair manual that can be done better, to a higher quality, and provide more dependability than what is stated in the manual. As I've said before, the manual is a good source source for reference but it isn't the "be all, end all".

I'll give you a good example: Open up your Haynes manual and look up the torque specs for the 10mm bolts in the bottom crank pulley. Then look at the torque specs for the water pump pulley.

Also, the last time I checked the manual there wasn't a procedure for using Sea Foam to clean the rings via addition through the spark plug holes

Further, in trying to resolve this conflict would you normally be willing to question you own pretty well established opinions. For example, would you be willing to admit that you didn't know how the B8 plugs which were seized had been treated before it came to you. Whether the threads had ever been cleaned or whether it had been grossly over torqued? Or could you tell us, for example, of a case where you personally did all the right things to install a set of plugs and for want of anti-seize compound, the plugs seized?

I didn't know the entire history of the car but when I finally got the plugs out and saw that they had been installed bone dry I can tell you it's a pretty safe bet that they had never seen a single drop of anti-seize. If you've dealt with it then you know it's very hard to clean off a surface and doesn't just run off or evaporate. Gross over-torquing can make them hard to break loose but once you overcome that they can usually be removed without much further issue. When a plug is tight at every turn there's usually another culprit. Again, I suggest you research galvanic corrosion for the answer to this. I've been turning wrenches for a LONG time and when something fails I can usually give you a fairly correct failure analysis without knowing the complete detailed history of the car. If I pull a head and the gasket is blown and the head is cracked, odds are that the engine was ran quite hot at some point before it came to me. If the bearings are trashed then you look at the lubrication system, etc. If you don't know how to troubleshoot a car then you'll probably not do a very good job at repairing it

To answer your second part. Yes, I have changed a set of plugs the correct way save for the use of anti-seize and it came back to haunt me years later. We used to repair and resale salvage vehicles and we only dealt with cars that were no older than 6 years because the bank wouldn't loan money on anything older. A neighbor bought a Ford pickup from us that was only about a year or so old and fairly low mileage. Being the cautious type he wanted me to go ahead and change the plugs in the truck. It was a 300 straight 6 so it was an easy job and something I could handle. I was only about 17 at the time I didn't even know anti-seize compound existed. I gapped and installed the new plugs and torqued them to the proper tightness. Fast forward quite a few years and many miles down the road and the neighbor comes to me and wants me to do a full tune-up this time, to which I said no problem. Well, when I went to remove the plugs I had to use a 1/2" breaker bar and every time I broke one loose it cracked like a .22 firing off. I had to drown them with WD-40 and even with that it was a difficult to remove them. By this time in my life I knew what anti-seize was and I remember thinking "if I only knew then what I know now".

I'm planning on doing a compression test on my Festiva this weekend. At least one of my manuals states that the motor should be at normal operating temperature before I remove all the plugs. Now I'm wondering if this would be the wrong thing to do? Any suggestions? Do the test cold?

In that situation I typically break the plugs loose while the engine is cold and then retighten them to "finger tight" (also verify that they screw in and out easily). Then crank the car and let it run until it's at it normal operating temperature (typically a couple of fan cycles). After you shut the engine off you should be able to remove the plugs by just unscrewing them with a socket and extension, no ratchet required since you pre loosened them when the engine was cold.