Trip of a Lifetime!

[TominMO]

I recall getting a mere 27mpg at 55mph on the BOS-BAL run, which has a few but not many hills (at least relative to what we call hills in the West and Alaska). The same car as a commuter easily gets 42-44mpg around town with jackrabbit starts at every light. So just the lightly-loaded trailer on that trip nearly halved my mileage numbers, obviously due to added air resistance.

Right, I've had the same experience both times I took trailers cross-country, once behind a Civic 4WD wagon and the other time behind a Subaru Loyale 4WD. Fighting headwinds was a bear too! Luckily my clutches held up.

[AlaskaFestivaGuy]

I recall getting a mere 27mpg at 55mph on the BOS-BAL run, which has a few but not many hills (at least relative to what we call hills in the West and Alaska). The same car as a commuter easily gets 42-44mpg around town with jackrabbit starts at every light. So just the lightly-loaded trailer on that trip nearly halved my mileage numbers, obviously due to added air resistance.

[TominMO]

Ryan, IIRC you mentioned some huge tongue load like 200-250 lbs. Two reasons why that would not work:
1. the constant bouncing would likely cause a shear force that would weaken if not break the fasteners holding the bumper on, and/or where the hitch is mounted to the body as well.
2. that much force pushing down the rear suspension would make the front end dangerously light. You could not safely steer, a safety issue greatly magnified by the load drastically exceeding the vehicle's basic design.

The solution would be simply to balance the load in the trailer so that you have a lighter tongue weight. My rule of thumb is that I need to be able to pick up the tongue of the fully-loaded trailer with one hand; I guesstimate at 50-75 lbs is good.

Trailer weight:
5 x 8 steel = 274 lbs
+ 6 sheets of plywood to enclose the 5x8, you then have a 4' high, 5' wide, 8' long enclosed trailer (rear 4x4 panel is hinged to be a door). Total build weight on the 4x8 steel = ~450 lbs. Maybe 500 if you put wooden shelving in the trailer for easier organization. You would have some plywood left over, for shelving. I have built a 4x8 trailer just like this, without internal shelving, in a few hours.

Decide you will only take what you can fit into this trailer (you could put light weatherproof stuff on top too), or into the car itself. This will drastically reduce your towed weight and its inherent issues. (This does not mean you can skip the brake and suspension upgrades tho.)

[TominMO]

I can vouch that Ian's family felt safe and surprisingly comfortable driving/riding thousands of miles (that's even more Kilometers, lol) in the Festiva. I met them on a couple of their furthest points along 2 journeys. An inspiring family to say the least.

Yes, with a B6 and Aspire brakes; and no trailer, I believe. An example of common sense. Yes, five people in a stock Festiva can travel long distances; but more safely with upgraded brakes, and more efficiently with upgraded motor.

[AlaskaFestivaGuy]

88/89s, which have the removable front headrests for the best flat floor configuration have much wimpier/non-rigid rear tiedown brackets to which you would be attaching your trailer hitch. I have a thread on here from a year or three ago showing photos of both types of tiedown brackets. Basically, in my opinion, you cannot sleep in and tow with the same Festy. I have only ever towed with later models with the rigid brackets.

That being said, I agree with TominMO above. I would not cram a bunch of people in a Festy and tow on anything but MOSTLY-STRAIGHT Interstates, no passengers, and carefully balanced loading with proper tongue load. If the road is wet, or you steer to avoid something in the road, you're a split-second from being in a deadly jackknife situation. I actually did try once towing 10 miles across Detroit on I-94 at 20mph on a wet road and did jackknife -- no harm done at that speed, but you'd almost certainly all end up dead at 60 or even 45 mph.

The thought of doing any of this with anything but a rust-free vehicle (which all of my Festies are) sends shivers up my spine. Gas is cheap these days ... get a much bigger vehicle.

[TominMO]

I have crossed North America 6 times in 2 different awesome uber-festivas myself.

I stand corrected.

[Advancedynamix]

Lol. Thanks Tom. 1 of them was a stock 89 auto that burned more oil than gas though. Lol.

[TominMO]

I have crossed North America 7 times in 3 different awesome uber-festivas myself.

Fixed it for ya.

[TominMO]

As far as the kids sleeping in the car, I would think anyone would consider it more safe than in a tent. It's metal. Place the kiddie seats on the Festiva front seats, do the rear seat trick. Crack a couple of windows for ventilation, done. Faster than erecting a tent, and you don't have the second one taking up space and weight.

The custom intake is pointless on a stock motor. More important is removing exhaust restrictions, maybe open up the airbox with holes drilled into the bottom piece (helps with high-RPM breathing). Advance timing. All that together might be worth 10 HP on a B3, esp. if the exhaust part was a really good header.

Or just stick in a B6, which automatically gives you significantly more HP and torque than the above mods.

[Advancedynamix]

I can vouch that Ian's family felt safe and surprisingly comfortable driving/riding thousands of miles (that's even more Kilometers, lol) in the Festiva. I met them on a couple of their furthest points along 2 journeys. An inspiring family to say the least.
Ryan, I admire you and your wife's desire to take this journey. I have faith in your ability to provide a safe journey for your family. I've also seen high mileage, stock festivas do amazing things, and I have crossed North America 7 times in 3 different festivas myself. Please keep this thread updated with your progress. I'm looking forward to following along.

[ryanprins13]

Some recommendations came to mind:
1. To reduce trailered weight, try to minimize what you are bringing; for example, do you really need bicycles? Hiking is plenty of exercise. Are there other non-essential heavy things you could do without, like the boat/motor? If two people slept in the car, you would only need one tent. Stuff like that.
2. Are your mileage/driving time calculations based on pulling a 1-ton trailer, and terrain? If not, I'd add 50% to the planned time. I think you will get to know 1st and 2nd gear very well. I hope you will not encounter long steep grades; 63 HP, low torque and a clutch designed for this car may not cut it. More reason to cut weight.
3. Powered coolers: what will power them? Festiva alternators barely power the car itself, with lights, A/C or heater, and radio. Non-powered ones are far cheaper, and good ones can keep things cold with ice for days. You could even go with the super-light disposable styrofoam type.

I think your plans will evolve over the course of time, as you think about what you plan to actually accomplish on the trip, and the practical considerations.

1. Yes, I will have to accommodate what we bring and how I build the trailer to what I can tow. What I listed are things I really want to bring. I thought it best to wait until purchasing a trailer so I know its weight and coming up with a better trailer build plan before deciding what to bring and what not to. Hiking is good exersice but if you want to cover any distance with small kids bikes are a lot easier. We enjoy parking the car and biking through tourist towns or down trails. You see a lot more than you would in the car or walking. However the bikes are the most difficult part to fit into the plan right now, they may not end up coming. The boat and the motor could also be done without but they really aren't that heavy. boat, oars and lifejackets are 32 pounds I think and the motor is pretty light too. If I can do this without the extra battery because of not taking the boat it may be worth it. There are a lot of beautiful lakes and we were hoping to explore a bunch, but again, I will get the trailer first, then look at this kind of stuff.
I am aware of the rear seat trick, I have slept in the car before and find it pretty decent. However using a roofrack instead of a trailer and taking everything out of the car including the carseats would be impractical. Leaving your young kids outside the car in a tent (or in the car if we are in a tent) would be frowned upon by anyone who saw it and the last thing we need is our kids taken away when we are a few thousand miles from home. All of us staying in a tent would also not work so well, we have tried it before and setup and packing up take a ton of time and if the tent gets wet or its raining it is pretty miserable.

2. We moved a farming operation 1400km through the rockies, so I am familiar with how it takes longer. The rockies will be slower, southern ontario, pei, new brunswick and that area too. The praries will be faster, lots of open road with moderate hills in the north and b.c that should be around this average.

3. I mentioned how much power they take and what will power them in the original posts. A powered cooler draws less power than one headlight. They don't run the whole time either. I thought about ice and regular coolers, but this is 3 months, lifting the full cooler out and draining it every 2 days would not be fun, you always have to worry about buying ice on time, and worst of all your food is always soaked. I have used styrofoam coolers before but would not trust them to stand up on a trip like this without leaking all over our stuff. Also no drains, you have to dump them.

Yes, I am sure my plans will change a lot.

I think you're nuts

And to whom are you addressing that bit of wisdom, sir? hmmmmmm

touchy are we? lol.
I have thought about this for some time as has my wife. Neither of us are unreasonable people. We both think this can be done and will be enjoyable. I detailed my plans as best I could and asked for help for what I am unsure of. I am open to criticism, open to changing my plans, but so far its been just ,your crazy' or 'I didn't read what you wrote but this this and this are an issue and your irresponsible' even though I talked about those particular things and they are either fine or will be taken care of. Like I said, I am open to criticism, but at least state a reason for it and why you think I am wrong. Just saying that the car doesnt have enough power or brakes when I have tried it and think it does doesn't change my mind, there has to be a reason.

Trial trip is a very good idea. I would further suggest a one-day pre-trial trip, with just you and the full weight load you plan to carry, to check out the physical practicality. That may (or may not) lead to further refinement, for the trial trip.

You say the body is near the end of its life. That translates to me as structurally unsound (rust). Do you plan on augmenting it for the trip, or do you think it is sound enough to do what you plan to put it through? Even more reason for the pre-trial trip.

As far as sleeping in the car--are you aware of the rear seat trick? Two adults can sleep quite comfortably in a Festiva if you have the 88-89 front seatbacks, with removable headrests. Do the rear seat trick, then move the front seats all the way forward, and recline the seatbacks all the way flat. About 6'6" of sleeping space! Or just do the rear seat trick (see post #16), and let the small kids sleep there.

I didn't get into the order I was going to do things too much. I plan to replace the thermostat on the car and test out the cooling system this summer. A bunch of other stuff will be done by fall including the hitch installation. I should have this trailer made up well enough by fall to try out at full weight. I am looking for trailers that I can easily attach an axle with brakes to if I need to. I had talked to a member here about a custom intake manifold 10 months ago or so, I was thinking of talking to him about making it again if I found the power to be slightly insufficient. Then I met someone who will sell me a B6 in very good condition at the end of summer, was a good deal and I plan to drive festivas later on in life as well. Might do some ice racing in the future, who knows. If power is lacking that bad I will install the B6.
This setup will be fine and satisfy what I want for this trip. Right now I believe the B3 and brakes it has to be fine. If by talking to people and trying the setup out this summer or fall I find out that they aren't then I will upgrade the brakes and/or put the b6 in. Thats not an issue. I am not into replacing or upgrading things just because. It seems everyone just upgrades the brakes to race because they think they have to, has anyone tried it with stock brakes? I probably wouldn't myself, but racing is a lot harder on brakes than towing.

As for the body- what I meant by the end of its life is that it will only look respectable for another 2 or 3 years and after probably 5 or 6 the rust would be bad enough that there would be no reason to not buy another $300 festiva and put my engine and trans in it. I have had transmission fluid leaks on and off for 6 or 7 years. Mostly on. Theres a couple reasons why I didn't fix it even though I wanted to, but what that has done is coat the entire underside of the car in oil for the last & or so years. So between the pinch welds all the way back to the rear bumper is in pretty decent shape. I judge where the rear axle bolts to the body to be fine. Where the rust is is in the rocker panels and rear wheel wells as they were not coated in oil. My rear steel bumper is not bad but has a bunch of surface rust. I just purchased a new one which will be shipped here shortly. Then I will buy or make some kind of tow hitch that uses the rear tow hooks, the rear bumper and the spare tire pan. Where it attaches to the bumper will be not only to the bottom but I will also weld it to the front face of the bumper (that faces the driver).

Ryan, I think you are off to a good start by asking for advice.

I couple of things I would highly recommend are the Aspire brake upgrade and a B6 swap. Those changes on our car made our road trips much more enjoyable. A few people thought we were crazy taking five in a Festiva across the continent!

Alright, your trip sounds interesting and I know you have done a pile of road trips and had your kids traveling in the car. I should read some of your blogs about what you have done. I sent you a message.

I am trying to concentrate more on the trailer build right now. However if someone has a suggestion on how to do this with a smaller trailer, a lighter one or no trailer at all I am all ears. My wife and I have done a 12 day camping road trip in the festiva, we have camped several times for long weekends or 4 days with the kids using our civic sedan and I do not see how it would be feasible to do this trip in an enjoyable way with no trailer. I do not think an 8ft trailer would work either, but like I said, I am all ears for practical ideas. I appreciate the suggestions of non powered coolers, sleeping in the car, leaving the bikes at home and so on. I do not think some of those suggestions would work but I appreciate them and any more. Just keeping in mind that we have 2 kids with us, one will be 2 and the other 4 and both in carseats.
Thanks!

[fastivaca]

Ryan, I think you are off to a good start by asking for advice.

I couple of things I would highly recommend are the Aspire brake upgrade and a B6 swap. Those changes on our car made our road trips much more enjoyable. A few people thought we were crazy taking five in a Festiva across the continent!

[TominMO]

Trial trip is a very good idea. I would further suggest a one-day pre-trial trip, with just you and the full weight load you plan to carry, to check out the physical practicality. That may (or may not) lead to further refinement, for the trial trip.

You say the body is near the end of its life. That translates to me as structurally unsound (rust). Do you plan on augmenting it for the trip, or do you think it is sound enough to do what you plan to put it through? Even more reason for the pre-trial trip.

As far as sleeping in the car--are you aware of the rear seat trick? Two adults can sleep quite comfortably in a Festiva if you have the 88-89 front seatbacks, with removable headrests. Do the rear seat trick, then move the front seats all the way forward, and recline the seatbacks all the way flat. About 6'6" of sleeping space! Or just do the rear seat trick (see post #16), and let the small kids sleep there.

[bhazard]

The OP

[TominMO]

I think you're nuts

And to whom are you addressing that bit of wisdom, sir? hmmmmmm