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Suspected failed water pump on 91 Festy in AK

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  • Suspected failed water pump on 91 Festy in AK

    I've been having to add water to the radiator all summer with no signs of leakage. Today, I actually saw water dribbling out in the area below the water pump.

    In my 20 years of owning Festies, this is my first (apparent) water pump issue ever.

    I've reviewed Haynes book and the Ford Festiva shop manual.

    One question: assuming I'm NOT going to replace the timing belt (understanding that I don't put many miles on cars here in AK, and that Festy engines are NON-interference design), will I really have to mess with removing the crank pulley? Once I get the timing belt cover (upper section, anyway) off, the tensioner released, and then slide the timing belt off the cam sprocket, will it not be possible to simply pull the timing belt away from the water pump sufficiently to replace the pump?

    I'd rather not have to mess with removing the starter and using a screwdriver to prevent engine movement.

    88L black, dailydriver
    88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
    4 88/89 disassembled
    91L green
    91GL aqua pwrsteer
    92GL red a/c reardmg
    3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
    1952 Cessna170B floatplane

  • #2
    I would say you are correct. If you use a felt tipped marker, mark the exact position of the timing belt to the camshaft sprocket and that should keep your cam timing intact as long as the belt did not move at the lower sprocket. Good luck.
    '88 Festiva LX 5 speed, A/C, Carb, restored $$$ body paint, badly wrecked @ 200k.
    '93 Festiva L, 5 speed, Aqua, bought from the original owner,.Zero rust but very nasty otherwise. Awaits the B6T.
    '91 Festiva L, 5 speed, bought to drive while putting the B6T in the '93. now B6ME powered.

    Comment


    • #3
      RtQ,

      I figured I'd put it in top gear, jack up a front wheel, rotate the wheel until the camshaft sprocket timing marks are aligned (at 12 and 3 o'clock I think I read somewhere) with engine block timing marks, then gently let the jack down. That should prevent the crankshaft from turning. If I should somehow accidentally rotate the camshaft, I can easily re-align.
      88L black, dailydriver
      88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
      4 88/89 disassembled
      91L green
      91GL aqua pwrsteer
      92GL red a/c reardmg
      3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
      1952 Cessna170B floatplane

      Comment


      • #4
        I've only replaced a timing belt once and that some years ago but the belt is wide and may not slide off the upper sprocket. Checking the Haynes manual to refresh my memory once the fan belt is removed and assuming no air conditoning, the lower pullies come off readily. No need to remove the crank shaft bolt, just the two pullies (Haynes photos 7.7, 7.​. I do recall having to put a pry bar in the upper motor mount to shift the engine block enough for the outer pulley to drop out. Also the plastic shield on the fender has to be removed to get at the lower pullies. All done from underneath.

        Before replacing the water pump I think I'd flush the cooling system. It's not hard to do and three things could happen, 1) it might fix the problem however unlikely, 2) thje problem might remain the same, or 3) it might make the problem worse. Maybe you've already done that.

        For your entertainment: https://fordfestiva.com/forums/forum...o-a-water-pump

        I seem to recall when removing the water pump pulley which is held on by three bolts I laid a long screwdriver between two bolt heads to keep it from tuning while loosening the third, and repeat for all three.
        Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

        Comment


        • #5
          For your entertainment: https://fordfestiva.com/forums/forum...o-a-water-pump

          I seem to recall when removing the water pump pulley which is held on by three bolts I laid a long screwdriver between two bolt heads to keep it from tuning while loosening the third, and repeat for all three.​
          Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

          Comment


          • #6
            WmWatt,

            My Haynes manual (1998 edition) must be different than yours. My chapter 3 has sections 6 & 7 covering water pump, with no photos for section 6 and only photos 7.4 and 7.6 for section 7 -- no photo 7.7.

            The YouTube requires a Google account to verify age.

            Another YouTube (38 mins long) by a guy who calls himself "The Mechanical Philosopher":

            Festiva Water Pump and Timing Belt - YouTube

            shows the timing belt being slid off the cam sprocket at +27mins39secs (even though they've already removed crank pulleys by that point). At +31mns00secs they slide it back on (after having slid it on the crank).

            Anyway, it looks like I'm ready to go for it when I have decent late summer weather with decent sunlight, perhaps this coming weekend.

            BTW, this is AK, so no AC (or PS). I actually have a 1990 Festy in WA which has both!

            Thanks
            88L black, dailydriver
            88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
            4 88/89 disassembled
            91L green
            91GL aqua pwrsteer
            92GL red a/c reardmg
            3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
            1952 Cessna170B floatplane

            Comment


            • #7
              You're good! GreyWolf's video shows replacing the water pump before the timing belt and doing it before removing the crankshaft pullies by sliding the timing belt off the camshaft as you describe.. His video is edited, not continuous, but it has a steadier camera. I don't know why he thought it inapproprate for children.

              I have the same Haynes manual but was looking in the timing belt section (pg 2A-6) where it has good photos of the crankshaft pullies. I find if I flip through the pages there are sometimes good photos in other sections.

              I think you'll find you have to remove the bottom half of the timing belt cover. It is removed in GreyWolf's video and photo 7.9 on page 2A-6 shows the split in the two halves is at the water pump shaft with half above and half below.

              Best wishes for a smooth operation. Let us know how it goes so people who come after can benefit from your experience.
              Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

              Comment


              • #8
                Things started out well. WP pulley came right off. Top half of cover (4 bolts) came right off.

                Two (of what I believe to be 3) lower half cover bolts came out. Third one seems (poor lighting) like it might be BEHIND crank's (only) pulley. Wouldn't that be a dumb design?

                So engaged 5th gear and used 29mm to alight cam sprocket marks -- just in case something went wrong. While doing this, the timing belt instantly went slack! I see that only threads are hol
                ding where it now has a 1/2" gap. It had to have been just about to fail!!!!!!

                So, having lost timing sync between cam and crank, I removed all 4 crank pulley bolts. The pulley now wiggles a bit, but definitely doesn't want to come off. Attached are two photos. Possibly one little screw missing and other either there or only partially there (broken)? Whadyathink?



                Attached Files
                88L black, dailydriver
                88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                4 88/89 disassembled
                91L green
                91GL aqua pwrsteer
                92GL red a/c reardmg
                3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                Comment


                • #9
                  Things started out well. WP pulley came right off. Top half of cover (4 bolts) came right off.

                  Two (of what I believe to be 3) lower half cover bolts came out. Third one seems (poor lighting) like it might be BEHIND crank's (only) pulley. Wouldn't that be a dumb design?

                  So engaged 5th gear and used 29mm to alight cam sprocket marks -- just in case something went wrong. While doing this, the timing belt instantly went slack! I see that only threads are holding where it now has a 1/2" gap. It had to have been just about to fail!!!!!!

                  So, having lost timing sync between cam and crank, I removed all 4 crank pulley bolts. The pulley now wiggles a bit, but definitely doesn't want to come off. Attached are two photos. Possibly one little screw missing and other either there or only partially there (broken)? Whadyathink?


                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by AlaskaFestivaGuy; 09-17-2021, 11:05 PM.
                  88L black, dailydriver
                  88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                  4 88/89 disassembled
                  91L green
                  91GL aqua pwrsteer
                  92GL red a/c reardmg
                  3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                  1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When it comes time to re-assemble (I'm still trying to remove the crankshaft pulley), I'm thinking I'm going to need to undo the passenger-side engine mount and lower the engine a bit in order to be able to get a torque wrench on the crankshaft pulley bolts.

                    I might even need to lower it remove the Phillips screw (or portion thereof) that's still holding the pulley on.

                    I'm beginning to think this one should have gone to the $100/hour shop ...
                    Last edited by AlaskaFestivaGuy; 09-18-2021, 10:58 AM.
                    88L black, dailydriver
                    88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                    4 88/89 disassembled
                    91L green
                    91GL aqua pwrsteer
                    92GL red a/c reardmg
                    3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                    1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I dislike stuck phillips head screws as the heads can easily be damaged. My approach is to use the largest phillips head driver in my socket wrench set which will fit so it doesn't slip. I assume you've applied penetrating oil and a wire brush. I belive I had to rotate the crankshaft to get at all the crankshaft pulley bolts and screws. From your photos it looks like you have easier access. I don't recall using a torque wrench to tighten the bolts, just by feel, until tight and then a bit more to grab securely.

                      PS Photo 7.9 on pg 2A-6 has arrows to all timing cover bolts.
                      Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I also dislike tiny Phillips screws. So what is the purpose of them here? To "stack up" multiple pulleys in place before inserting a single set of 4 hex bolts thru them all? What appeared to be just one screw in my photos was accurate, and it came out easily. I see no reason to reinstall even the one screw I found let alone two.

                        Haynes photo 7.9 shows 4(top)+2(bottom) 10mm cover bolts. In fact, there are 3 in the bottom. See my photo. Lower center bolt is not visible in photo 7.9.

                        What's with the gasket? Some sort of "organic" rubber which continues to grow 30 years after being manufactured into product?

                        So ... the water pump that came out has no wobble or other signs of distress, but its circular gasket was discombobulated, with about 60 degrees of arc missing! No wonder it just fast-dripped onto the ground suddenly last week.

                        So I'm ready to install the new water pump (which comes with gaskets), gasket sealant, and new timing belt. Just before daytime temps drop from mid-50s (F) to low 40s (F) with snow already in the hills.

                        QUESTION: To verify cam/crank timing sync, can I safely start the engine briefly before installing the crankshaft pulley? Will the timing belt track correctly without it for a few hundred revolutions? I presume being off by even one tooth will be immediately apparent during a quick run-up? Even after installing pulleys and belt, I think I'll leave the covers off until spring.
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by AlaskaFestivaGuy; 09-18-2021, 09:58 PM.
                        88L black, dailydriver
                        88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                        4 88/89 disassembled
                        91L green
                        91GL aqua pwrsteer
                        92GL red a/c reardmg
                        3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                        1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A hand held impact would come in handy. I am talking about the one that you strike with a hammer. Hitting the impact with a hammer not only drives the Phillips bit tightly into the head of the screw, (good thing we're not on You Tube, cause that last phrase could put it in the adults only category) it also turns the screw in the counter clockwise direction and it gets even better! The hammer blows to the impact help to jar the stuck fastener loose. You can usually find a decent hand held impact driver at a Napa store. Seems to me you have mentioned buying parts and tools at Napa. I don't recall if the Napa was in Alaska or Washington. Obviously you do. Sometimes you try and help a guy only to get a reply like " Oh man I'm in Alaska the only Napa store is all the way back in Washington" You been on here a long time and whenever you post or better said "when I see your posts I take time out to read them". I'm in New Mexico and am envious of the greenery of the Pacific North West and actually only in fair weather. Yeah I know the winters can be relatively mild by Mid West standards at least. I don't miss the Chicago winters one bit and actually why the hell do they call that region the Mid West? I do know a couple of years back I spent the entire month of February working in Portland Oregon. It never got cold enough to snow but it was usually around 35 degrees and rained everyday. Couldn't wait to come home to Albuquerque and the 70 degrees and sunny days of March. Sorry if I offended anybody by getting off topic. Hopefully your device has a fast forward or back button. Seriously getting back to hand held impacts, Lisle makes a nice one. They are made in the USA or at least were and last time I checked they were just under $40. Good luck!
                          BTW : do you still have the '52 flying machine? Pictures would be nice.
                          '88 Festiva LX 5 speed, A/C, Carb, restored $$$ body paint, badly wrecked @ 200k.
                          '93 Festiva L, 5 speed, Aqua, bought from the original owner,.Zero rust but very nasty otherwise. Awaits the B6T.
                          '91 Festiva L, 5 speed, bought to drive while putting the B6T in the '93. now B6ME powered.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            RtQ,

                            I understand your logic for using an impact screwdriver.. The situation with the Festy engine is that there's only about 2" between the engine and solid structure, so there's no room to position much of anything perpendicular to line up with fasteners. To get the one screw out, I used a little 4"-long ratchet which holds replaceable-tip screwdriver bits, specifically the version with a 45-degree bend in the ratchet handle. It AWAYS pays to have the right tool!

                            Napa seems to be everywhere, not just WA and AK, where we have 5 of them just here in "Los Anchorage." O'Reilly is good with 5 stores also. Autozone has three.

                            Yes, I still have the little'52 flying machine, but haven't even bothered with annual inspections since 2019 due to COVID, so it sits on the ramp with the engine pickled. The air is pretty dry here (same 17"/year of precipitation as the Bay Area), so corrosion isn't a huge concern like in the Pacific Northwest, where engine internals turn to junk in one winter if not operated regularly, as in pretty-much weekly..
                            Last edited by AlaskaFestivaGuy; 09-19-2021, 01:26 AM.
                            88L black, dailydriver
                            88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                            4 88/89 disassembled
                            91L green
                            91GL aqua pwrsteer
                            92GL red a/c reardmg
                            3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                            1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              SE Aqua, my favorite Fest color! You should be fine without the top cover. As for running it before assembling it, I imagine you could but why? Line up the upper and lower sprockets as shown in the repair manual. Put timing belt on, release tensioner, tighten tensioner, rotate engine clockwise 2 full turns. You will stop in the same exact position as when you installed the belt. In other words the lower pulley should be at TDC. At this point the camshaft marks should still be pointing to the respective marks at 12 and 3 o'clock. If not you will need to slide the belt off and turn the camshaft in the appropriate direction to get the marks aligned. At this point repeat the procedure. Turn the engine over 2 turns clockwise, stop at TDC and again, check the alignment of the marks on the cam sprocket. I am going from memory and I may have left a small detail out. That doesn't sound too encouraging does it? LoL.....You may want to double check my procedure with the manual and as always just use common sense. I have replaced a bunch of timing belts on various engine configurations and the B3 engine really is a simple belt change. One thing you did not mention and that was the tensioner bearing or more specifically the condition of it. Spin the bearing to make sure it's not junk. Again use you judgement or better yet if you're not in a financial bind replace it. They are not overly expensive and for me the money spent on a new bearing at minimum gives me peace of mind. Also places like Auto Zone may have 2 or 3 levels of quality on the bearing and also the belt. I don't always buy the highest level but I don't normally buy the lowest level. Given a choice between Made IN USA, Made in Japan or made in China typically the Chinese made part is my last pick and of course sometimes we don't have any choice at 8:45 PM. We take what they have in stock. Good Luck and let us know how it turns out
                              Does your plane have a radial engine? I am amazed at the operation of that style of engine. Did you ever consider what kind of great thinkers figured out how to make them run?
                              '88 Festiva LX 5 speed, A/C, Carb, restored $$$ body paint, badly wrecked @ 200k.
                              '93 Festiva L, 5 speed, Aqua, bought from the original owner,.Zero rust but very nasty otherwise. Awaits the B6T.
                              '91 Festiva L, 5 speed, bought to drive while putting the B6T in the '93. now B6ME powered.

                              Comment

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