Natural gas B-series ?'s

[Burnrate]

I am looking for some thoughts on natural gas coversions of FI b-series engines.
Difficulty?
Power loss?
Engine Management?
Components required?
safety?

I also have a carbed engine to play with but would rather use FI is possible.

I am getting ready to switch over the engine and fuel system in my car and thought I would explore the possibilities and economy of NG.

I have 0 experience in this area other than setting up some NG generators.

Eric

[Gforcefd]

I do not believe there has been anyone that has done this on a festiva. As far as engine management I would take it you would probably need some sort of standalone system to run the car, since NG is going to burn differently than gasoline.

[Mike McKown]

There's many computer cotrolled vehicles running around with LP gas conversions or dual fuel setups. I don't see why a nautural gas conversion would be much different than propane. One benefit of propane is the availability of re-fueling points. Might be a problem with natural gas.

I'd check with a propane gas dealer to get me started on the right path.

[edudu77]

It appears that the easiest and cheapest route is to go with a carb setup...FI setups seem to run $1000+. Here's a link to an article about converting to LP, also works for NG and methanol.

http://tinyurl.com/55teqj

I didn't read the whole article...but it seems rather informative. For around $100 it may be worth a shot. The tank may be the issue though.

[stefan]

Would be be interesting! I don't know about you guys, but here we use natural gas to heat our houses here! We even have a natural gas outlet on the outside of the house for a natural gas BBQ!

[FB71]

residential gas is at amuch lower pressure than commercial gas. You would need a concentrator to pump residential gas into a vehile fuel tank, and refueling takes about 8 hours. It can be done (and is done in parts of the US), but it's rather inconvenient.

[piratewilly]

i was thinking about doing a swap to LP too, but couldn't find a real benefit to it other then less pollution. But i dont think its all the festivas running around in the world that are making all the polution. Its the people driving oversize cars that they dont need with big v8's that should have to convert to LP. Other then contractors and people who use them for work, who really needs a truck? now im not getting on anybody who drives them, i love trucks, but i know my neighbor has a huge diesel dully that he uses as his daily driver. I asked him how come you drive that big huge truck. He told me well i have a big trailer that i tow when we go on vacation. I asked him how often he goes on vacation, he answered well my wife is a teacher so we go once a summer. So he needs a huge truck, that he drives every day, that has to be costing him a bunch on fuel, and that he really needs once a year. After mine and his talk, he decided i was right and that truck was to much to have to drive around every day, so what does he do, pulled that one in the garage and bought just a regular crew cab gas truck, yeah, that makes since. if i take a look at ur old truck there isn't even a scratch in the bed of ur truck or any dirt on the suspension, but i can understand how and why u really need a truck. Sorry people like that piss me off i had to rant ha. Now if everybody would drive a festiva i think the world would be a happier place and there would be less war right haha cause festiva owners are always happy as they pass the gas station right haha, and were always unhappy when we break down, which usually doesn't happen that often, but when we do and if there is another festiva owner driving by you know they will stop and help. Its like our own little club.

[edudu77]

Here is one of the at home kits like FB71 mentioned.

https://www.myphill.com

pretty neat. There is actually an outfit near me that does the conversion, they are currently trying to get approval for a focus conversion. They already do Ford and Chevy trucks. I'm sure most cities have something like this.

http://www.transecoenergy.com/pages/CNG_Conversions.htm

[getnpsi]

I've seen manual transmission diesel trucks get in the low to mid 20s mpg. that isnt too bad, and return on investment buying a second vehicle is really steep unless it's in the sub $2000 range. LIKE A FESTIVA!! Stobborn rednecks, i know. My family is full of them.

[Burnrate]

What I have learned:

The EPA really wants you to pay them a lot of money to get your conversion kit approved.

An approved conversion kit will run between 8 and 12k

There are not many cars that approved kits are made for.

An unapproved conversion kit + tank = 4-5k plus installation.

A total DIY kit may get away with 2-3k or less if you know where to get the parts.

If you have emissions tests an get caught with an unapproved system you can be charged with tampering with emissions system.

It works fine on Carb or EFI.

You can still use gasoline.

You get 10% less mileage and 10% less horsepower for half the cost per gallon.

Refueling stations are few and far between.

Gas tanks are about 8 gallons for cars and hold either 3000or 3600psi and cost about 1k.

Home refueling compressors cost 5k and that does not include storage tank etc and take about an hour per gallon to fill the tank.

The Honda GX is the only Factory produced CNG vehicle in the US. 25k and up.
And I am not buying a Honda.

Conclusion: I would love to use a 100% domestically produced fuel but the infrastructure is not there. The EPA is in the way of progress again. And the cost is prohibitive.

Maybe in 10 years……

[CharlieZ]

Ng is a pretty darned expensive option for anybody but Boone Pickens @ 1.800. I GOT GAS
I wonder how much running a concentrator for 8 hours would add to your power bill?

Has anyone given consideration to RPG? Reclaimed Personal Gas?

[solatare]

latest issue of diesel power has an article on CNG.
Its not a pretty picture for running a vehicle.
main issue i see is the pressure needed to make the gas useable. nearly 3600 psi
at that pressure id be real sensitive to temperature, and for decent range youd need a huge tank.

another issue is energy density or btu per cubic foot.
gasoline: 922
propane:683
CNG (@3626 psi): 266

CNG has only a third of the energy potential of gasoline, which means you need oh, a 30 gallon tank to go half the distance you could on 10 gallons of gasoline. why half? temperature and pressure. as the tank empties pressure gradually drops, and thus your btus drop, you could look into LNG(with a BTU rating of 679) but that would require even more specialized equipment and would be difficult to refuel.

CNG is methane, yes the same stuff that makes your fart smell so bad, and most livestock farms extract it from the, erm, "leavings" of the stock and then use it to power the farm and also sell it.

[CharlieZ]

At this time, IMHO, alternative vehicle fuels are a ways off for every man's daily use. Distribution is the issue. While propane is somewhat readily available, it still doesn't have the wide-spread availability as does diesel and gasoline. There is a huge door-to-door food sales operation that runs all of their trucks w/refrigeration on propane but they go "back to the barn" every night to refuel and restock. A friend converted his Suburban big block to propane - a DIY project - and met with limited refueling options when traveling the country. On the other hand, all the fork trucks where I worked were propane powered. Here again, they all went to the same barn at night for refueling.

I'm wondering how long it will be before the "taxing authorities" catch on to the soon-to-be-more-common "plug-in" cars. They'll have to, AND WILL, devise a way to regain lost motor fuel taxes. My 2¢ worth.

[CityConnection]

Propane would be a much easier conversion to do. CNG is stored at very high pressure (3000-4000psi) and as others have stated, you can't just plug it into your house outlet and "fill-up". LPG on the other hand only needs to be stored above 177psi to be kept in it's liquid state. Here is a kit on ebay to convert a 22r Toyota engine to propane, includes everything but the fuel tank: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOT...34#ht_1060wt_0

The advantages of propane over CNG are: cheaper fuel tank (lower pressure means a cheaper tank), cheaper conversion cost (only need a vaporizer and a flow controller), and more refueling stations are available.

Even with the current high prices of fuel, propane is still cheaper than gasoline. Yes, it has a lower energy density than gasoline but the savings on taxes should make up for that. Plus, propane burns very clean. Engine maint. intervals can be extended as well. I've seen oil come out of a propane powered engine that was in for 15K miles and it looked as golden as the day it was refined. And carbon buildup... what's that?

[nonamekid]

Just remember, propane used as vehicle fuel has additional tax on it than propane used for heat.