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  • F5MR Discussion

    Hey all,

    Just been doing some research on my swap plans for next year, and I came across an interesting idea. Figured I'd bounce a few ideas off of everyone and see what they think:

    I'm planning a B8-ME F5MR swap for my ride next year, and am looking for the pep as well as the fuel economy. So this got me thinking about gear ratios and such with the F5. ProtegeFAQ tells me that the 1990-1991 model year Protege is the way to go, because it has a 3.619:1 final drive ratio. Compare this to the 4.10 323/MX-3 ratio, and you'll see a huge difference:

    B8-ME (90-91) 3.416 1.842 1.290 0.918 0.731 3.619:1
    323/MX-3 3.416 1.842 1.290 0.918 0.731 4.105:1

    So I was looking into the Escort 1.9L transmissions, because FEOA.net and Imazda tells me that they are indeed F-series transmissions. If there's something preventing this from working, please let me know ASAP.

    "the 1.9 came with the weaker F series mazda tranny. i have no idea what ratios it came with, but i can tell you some other cars that use this transmission platform. you could research their gear ratios and see if they have a taller 5th than the escort."

    "1990-1994 Mazda Protege DX and Mazda 323
    1991-1996 Ford Escort Pony, LX 3 and 5 door hatchbacks and 4-door sedans and Mercury Tracer (base)
    1992-1996 Mazda MX-3 RS "

    Conveniently, the ratio of a standard 1.9L Escort:
    91+ 1.9 3.416 1.842 1.290 0.972 0.731 3.619

    I will call the MX-3/323 one the "race" F5 because of its high final drive, and the others "economy" F5's because of the low final drive. Okay, so what's the big deal, Aaron... that Escort is identical to the Protege economy F5 one. But wait... now have a look at this badboy:
    91-93 1.9FS 3.416 1.700 1.151 0.868 0.731 3.409

    I just looked into it, and this FS surprised me - apparently there was a "fuel saver" manual transmission available from 1991 to 1993 on the base model pony Escorts. AKA thousands of juicy F-series transmissions that could save us a lot of highway-RPM grief potentially!

    "If it's a Pony, it almost certain had the fuel saver transmission. I can look mine over to see if there are any casting numbers on it, but I don't remember if there were or not (mine's siting on a shelf at my parents' house)."

    Now that's a heck of a lot of gear! This was cause for alarm, because I don't want to overgear/underpower all of the effort/time/money that it takes to throw in a B6/B8. Let's have a look at the Pony Escort. 1.9L SOHC crappy motor, and it came with 88HP and 108LBS/FT. However, since they were free from A/C and P/S, it might be closer to 100 and 120 respectively.

    How about some swapped Festiva numbers for reference:
    B6-E 82hp @ 5000rpm 92ft-lb @ 2500rpm
    B8-ME 103hp @ 5500rpm 111ft-lb @ 4000rpm

    Seems pretty comparable, especially with the B8-ME popped in. No gearing issue whatsoever.

    So, in conclusion, I think this might be a really legit way of getting fuel economy out of a B6/B8 swap. With the stronger Mazda-produced motor, and the FS-F-Series transmission, I think it would be a great way to maintain fuel economy with the added pep and power of the B6/B8 swap.

    "When you get your transmission, try to get the flywheel, transmission mounts (for parts or ideas for creating new mounts), and the shifter, or at least the first foot of the shifter connections that are at the transmission. For axles, you will need to procure axles from a 1986-1989 Mazda 323 (non turbo) or 1986-1989 Mercury Tracer. These axles should be available in abundance at the junkyard and at your local auto parts store."

    Anything stopping an Escort-FS transmission from being used with a first gen 323 set of axles? I'll assume the clutches are pretty much universal across the F-series board... lots of options available in junkyards and on Ebay.

    Here are the numbers comparing the standard B8 transmission to the Escort FS:
    http://fatboyraceworks.com/gears/ind...raph&Compare=1

    Sources:
    http://www.protegefaq.net/
    http://www.feoa.net/modules.php?name...wtopic&t=66007
    http://www.feoa.net/modules.php?name...highlight=f5mr
    http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65792
    http://www.mx-3.com/manuals/showimg..../92_J1-003.gif
    http://www.feoa.net/modules.php?name...wtopic&t=67216
    http://www.feoa.net/modules.php?name...ewtopic&t=5084
    http://www.clubprotege.com/wil/tech/...ineswapfaq.htm
    1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

  • #2
    Hmm definitely some good info, nice research

    1988 323 Station Wagon - KLG4 swapped
    1988 323 GT - B6T Powered
    2008 Ford Escape - Rollover Survivor

    1990 Festiva - First Ever Completed KLZE swap (SOLD)

    If no one from the future stops you from doing it, how bad of a decision can it really be?

    Comment


    • #3
      1 question are the bell housings the same?
      The ford designed & built 1.9 vs mazda built 1.6/1.8???
      It could be like swapping all the internals from a zx2 into the g-series case.
      It's a good thing you don't read the stickies, you might of learned something.Poverty produces creativity

      Comment


      • #4
        the bell housings are different, you'll need a Bseries compatable case to run the 1.9 internals in
        Trees aren't kind to me...

        currently: 2 88Ls (Scrappy and Jersey), 88LX, 90L(Pepe), 91L, 91GL (Skippy) 93 GL Sport (the Mighty Favakk), 94 (Bruce) & 95 Aspire SEs, 97 Aspire (The Joker),
        94 Justy 4WD, 87 Fiero GT, plus 2 parts cars. That's my fleet.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by muscle_Car1 View Post
          1 question are the bell housings the same?
          The ford designed & built 1.9 vs mazda built 1.6/1.8???
          It could be like swapping all the internals from a zx2 into the g-series case.
          Originally posted by FestYboy View Post
          the bell housings are different, you'll need a Bseries compatable case to run the 1.9 internals in
          So a F-series B-compatible case and bellhousing with an FS-set of internals would be no issues? No problems with splines/lengths/compatibility? Makes sense that they'd fit without issue, being that the gear ratios are so similar. I wonder if any of the MX-3, Protege, and 323 people have looked into this swap at all... seems like it would be very rewarding for hypermilers and fuel misers.
          Last edited by Aaronbrook37; 09-25-2010, 09:48 AM.
          1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

          Comment


          • #6
            In terms of making a serious difference, here's a three-prong comparison:

            For 185/60-14's - 22.74" Diameter - at 2000RPM in 5th:
            Escort Fuel Economy F5: 87KPH or 54MPH
            Protege B8 1990-1991 F5: 82KPH or 51MPH
            MX-3/323 F5: 72KPH or 45MPH

            For 185/60-14's - 22.74" Diameter - In order to go 70MPH/115KPH in 5th:
            Escort Fuel Economy F5: 2575RPM
            Protege B8 1990-1991 F5: 2750RPM
            MX-3/323 F5: 3100RPM

            For 185/60-14's - 22.74" Diameter - In order to go 50KPH/30MPH in 3rd:
            Escort Fuel Economy F5: 1750RPM
            Protege B8 1990-1991 F5: 2050RPM
            MX-3/323 F5: 2350RPM

            So you can see that you can really depend on how low this transmission is, assuming the bellhousing and case swap is as easy as it seems. Definitely a must for people considering using the 323/MX-3 RS transmission for long journeys or commutes to work. 500RPM difference between the two extremes is a fair bit, especially if you're going at or over 70MPH!

            This FS set of internals could easily be the key to having a B3/B6/B8 that enjoys ridiculous MPG and fuel economy. In fact, a plain-jane B6 with this transmission setup and some basic aero could probably crack 55/60MPG consistently I think.

            Relevant fuel injector information:

            B3 Fuel injectors - Purple - 120CC/min
            B6 Fuel injectors - Green - 130CC/min
            B8 Fuel injectors - Brown - 254CC/min

            Sources:
            http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml
            Last edited by Aaronbrook37; 09-25-2010, 01:45 PM.
            1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

            Comment


            • #7
              I like your thinking and research Aaron!

              What about just changing final drive gearing, if that's possible? I've never opened a transaxle before, so I have little or no idea what I'm talking about.

              For simplicity, that 1990-'91 Protege DX transaxle swap would be better than nothing. Swapping an Escort Pony final drive into that case would be next easiest (assuming it's possible, that is). If possible, wouldn't that be easier than a full internals swap between Pony and Mazda F series?

              Just asking.

              Karl
              '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
              '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
              '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
              '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
              '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

              Comment


              • #8
                Who does 30 in 3rd gear? Im in 5th by then!

                2000 or below at 55 would be sweet though, mines not too bad, 2300 or so. Could always be better though!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bhazard View Post
                  Who does 30 in 3rd gear? Im in 5th by then!

                  2000 or below at 55 would be sweet though, mines not too bad, 2300 or so. Could always be better though!
                  lol i shift from 2nd to 3rd at about 30 or 35 lol

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Why? Except for your steep grades down there?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      wow... thats alot of reading... my brain hurts.... good read tho lots of good info in there! lets hope it works out for you, let me know if you need help


                      Mike, AKA the sasquatch
                      1990 LX, bp+T/g25mr, 9psi dynoed at 194HP, turbonetics t3/to4e 57trim, haltech E6X standalone, 550cc injectors, turbosmart wastegate, synapse BOV, walbro 255 fuel pump, aeromotive FPR, AEM wideband, 3 inch exhaust, huge FMIC, 9LB flywheel, 6 puck clutch and way more parts that im forgetting i installed lol...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        b/c i don't drive the speed limit or worry too much about fuel milage

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So the question is; Where do you find an Escort Pony for the "fuel saver" trans? I only remember seeing maybe 2 or 3 of the Pony versions ever.
                          Maybe they were more common in other areas of the country?
                          Brian

                          93L - 5SP, FMS springs, 323 alloys, 1st gen B6, ported head & intake, FMS cam, ported exhaust manifold w/2-1/4" head pipe.
                          04 Mustang GT, 5SP, CAI, TFS plenum, 70mm TB, catted X, Pypes 304SS cat-back, Hurst Billet+ shifter, SCT/Bama tuned....4.10's & cams coming soon
                          62 Galaxie 2D sedan project- 428, 3x2V, 4SP, 3.89TLOC

                          1 wife, 2 kids, 9 dogs, 4 cats......
                          Not enough time or money for any of them

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Safety Guy View Post
                            I like your thinking and research Aaron!

                            What about just changing final drive gearing, if that's possible? I've never opened a transaxle before, so I have little or no idea what I'm talking about.

                            For simplicity, that 1990-'91 Protege DX transaxle swap would be better than nothing. Swapping an Escort Pony final drive into that case would be next easiest (assuming it's possible, that is). If possible, wouldn't that be easier than a full internals swap between Pony and Mazda F series?

                            Just asking.

                            Karl
                            Karl - you're very much correct. I would suspect that they are compatible. However, I think a whole transmission would be a better bang for my buck than just the final drive. The whole transmission is just $50 pull it yourself, and I bet that extra labour would leave me paying at least 60% of that for a diff. Might as well get it all if you're going to bother tearing open two transmissions anyway.

                            Originally posted by bhazard View Post
                            Who does 30 in 3rd gear? Im in 5th by then!

                            2000 or below at 55 would be sweet though, mines not too bad, 2300 or so. Could always be better though!
                            So am I... just saying for comparison's purpose for those who are a little more rev-happy, like Blade haha.

                            Originally posted by sasquatch View Post
                            wow... thats alot of reading... my brain hurts.... good read tho lots of good info in there! lets hope it works out for you, let me know if you need help
                            Haha thanks Mike. When the time comes, I'll probably provide you with some goodies and renumeration for doing an open-heart transmission swap haha.

                            Originally posted by blkfordsedan View Post
                            So the question is; Where do you find an Escort Pony for the "fuel saver" trans? I only remember seeing maybe 2 or 3 of the Pony versions ever.
                            Maybe they were more common in other areas of the country?
                            The FEOA says that some of the regular 1991-1993's had this transmission too, but I have yet to find someone with one to confirm or deny what sort of markings are on the FS-specific one. I know there's a window badge marking that it's a fuel saver model, but I think some of the base models with the 1.9 had it as well in the early years. Still working on that one though. Will keep you posted.
                            1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bhazard View Post
                              Who does 30 in 3rd gear? Im in 5th by then!

                              2000 or below at 55 would be sweet though, mines not too bad, 2300 or so. Could always be better though!
                              im just into 2nd at that point. i built mine to have fun, i drive it like i stole it and still average 29-30 mpg. b6E, stock-trans, 205/50/15s


                              it would not be easily possible to switch the final drive gear, this would require disassembling the main shaft, partially or full im not sure. either way swapping both main and secondary shafts and diff are war easier than using a press or trying to use pullers to separate the main shaft.
                              Im not driving a Festiva because I'm poor. I drive a Festiva because i want to!

                              Dennis
                              93 L Advancedynamics suspension mod, awaiting B6 swap
                              91 GL B6 sohc, currently in the hands of DAE undergoing top secret work. Soon to be cable G, with stage 3 F1 Kevlar clutch... To be continued
                              93 GL In progress BP/hydro G
                              15 Mitsubishi Mirage daily
                              88 Dakota tow pig

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