Adiabatic Engine

[sketchman]

I don't know the most, and I'm not the most understood on it either. It was suggested that a thread be started, so I'm doing it.

So I've read Smokey's patent doc for his hot vapor engine. I've also seen the idea shot down a lot because "you just can't have the mixture that hot" without causing det or auto ignition, or that it would melt the cylinder head, or any number of other reasons. I personally don't know the temperature that gas and air self ignites, or how much heat it would take to instantly melt a cylinder head. I also have not read of anyone actually building the thing and seeing what happens.

So let's discuss it.

Here is the doc that explains the system, or as much of it as Smokey wanted anyone to know.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/amgivqqevphb9jf/hotvapor.pdf?dl=0


So what do you think?

[sketchman]

My thought was that if you could inject water directly into the cylinder you could create an adiabatic power stroke so heat never leaves the CC. All the heat would get used because you'd have the water injected after ignition to absorb the heat generated by the gas/air mix burning. Turns out I found they have tested this a long time ago.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0082078475803985

The summary of that article says that even without a mixture prep as Smokey used, they saw the following:

Optimum total engine cooling by direct water injection was accomplished over a wide range of water injection timings (from 450 to 720 CA degrees after TDC power stroke) at water/fuel ratios of 2.9 to 3.7 with output power and brake specific fuel consumption improved 5 to 20%, respectively, over that with the standard jacket-cooled CLR engine.

The quality of the uncondensed exhaust for turbocharging is attractive. A theoretical gain of about 17.5% in available exhaust energy due to generation of steam was calculated, along with a temperature decrease of several hundred degrees Fahrenheit.

A couple things that look awesome to me about that idea from that study.

1. They say increased exhaust energy AND lower EGTs from the water = faster spool for a given size turbo AND lower turbo temp
2. Increased efficiency all by itself = even greater efficiency should be possible with a turbo/"homogenizer" like Smokey used

[Eaglefreek]

A few years ago there was a father and son team that supposedly did this to a Fox body Mustang and had it figured out, but I never heard anything after the initial story. When I tired searching the net for it, I found this article. http://www.legendarycollectorcars.co...clusive-video/

[Movin]

My belief based on experience is you would still be flirting with destruction going directly to water injection. It would be best to get a level one engine working well first, then push its capabilities with water injection. I can't substantiate this, but I am sure that is the way Smoky would have got to where he had a working test bed that was ready to to cause mental anguish for factory engineers set to check it out lol.

So, lets say you want to apply this patent idea to a B engine, we would need a carb system and a redesigned exhaust. Any idea's how this could fit in a festy?

[Eaglefreek]

Found it. But it uses different technology and doing some more searching, turns out to be most likely a scam.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1017681_80-miles-per-gallon-400-horsepower-fox-body-mustang

[Movin]

The Fiero is a great test bed, in another project I had one owned by a horse/cattle rancher getting 52 mpg.
But also not using the adiabatic thought Smoky played with

[sketchman]

You'd also need an old style turbo shaft seal, because the new ones can't be used with a draw through carb. When under vacuum it will pull oil through the seal and into the IM. Unless you had some way to isolate the seal from the vacuum when the you're off the throttle.

[Movin]

The turbo would need to be small, on our engine only capable of a hundred horse or so, mainly so that there is no lag and the turbo spins at idle. There are others who know far more than I do about turbo types and sizing.

[bhearts]

What's the general idea behind this. Super heated saturated air? Using two stages of air warming, one from coolant, one from exhaust?

[Movin]

For Smoky's level one engine it is controlled heating of the fuel air mixture. It has to be heated slightly beyond vaporization so that the mixture stays vaporized under all throttle conditions until combustion. It is also important keep the mixture mixed lol more on that later.

[Movin]

Smoky used coolant to recover heat and use it . The change of state from liquid to gas is what makes heat pumps so efficient. He is using this as the primary method of radiating the coolant...

Same idea for the exhaust, using waste heat. Clever as this is though they are not the basic theory of operation here, and Smoky talked all around that..

[Movin]

You realize that as the mixture heads toward 800 degrees some of the problems that Smoky solved come to a head ?

[Hot_Wheels]

At one time the fiero he did the test bed on was up for auction and there was a video on YouTube of it running.

[sketchman]

You realize that as the mixture heads toward 800 degrees some of the problems that Smoky solved come to a head ?

The doc says that the mixture is kept below 440 F to stop it auto-igniting before it gets to the CC.

That seems to agree with a page I found that says auto-ignition temp for gasoline is 475-536 F. If you get a combustible gas/air mix to 800 F, I would think nothing short of wizardry is going to keep the mix from exploding. Did Smokey say off the record or something, he was taking it to 800?

[fujioko]

The original Hot Rod article plus a few more articles can be found here... http://www.legendarycollectorcars.co...clusive-video/

The claim was 1.8HP per cubic inch...that works out to 144 HP for a 1300....

I wonder....