Qs for Charlie/Advancedynamix

[TominMO]

Handling characteristics of aftermarket bars

Charlie, nonamekid will be selling front strut bars, rear strut bars, and LCA connecting bars. Can you give us a brief (or not brief) rundown on the best use of these items, alone and in combination? I.e. what types of driving would be best for these, and which would not benefit. IIRC you just run the stock Festy anti-sway bar, with all your attention to suspension being in springs and struts, and no bracing.

[nonamekid]

I am interested in your thoughts also. I have heard discussion both ways about strut bars: some say they are worthless and some say they greatly benefit.

[Advancedynamix]

The only place that a solid Festiva needs any bracing is the front lower radiator/sway bar support. This area is the origin for all of this cars unwanted flex. Other than that area, the weak link is the inner control arm bushings. These squish out of the arms at extreme cornering. I replaced Tweaks with superpro poly bushings and solved the problem. This chassis can take constant 2g lateral loads while hitting gnarly curbing with no signs of chassis fatigue without any further bracing.
Bracing may be helpful if a car has been compromised by rust. I have not tried any further bracing on my car because I didn't see any need. I prefer to allow a chassis to move as it was intended by the manufacturer until that movement causes fatigue issues. Some chassis flex is necessary.
A bar that ties the two control arm mounting points together may be the most sensible place for reinforcement, after the front lower radiator support. I haven't seen any signs of stress in this area other than the displaced bushings, but I know a lot of cornering load is applied here. A strut tower bar may be useful on a rally car or offroad car. Strut towers take a beating in a rally car. For normal street use, autocross or road racing these bars aren't necessary to consistently out corner nearly every car ever manufactured for street use.

[TominMO]

Would you say it's more important to keep the front end stiff and let the rear end be a little more flexible? I.e. only buy the rear brace bar for rally/offroad. Buy the LCA bar on general principles, to tighten up the front; and the front strut tower bar for rally/offroad. Would adding stiffness via the front strut tower bar be a hindrance for fast street cornering? Or just not that much of a help?

[nonamekid]

Strut bars do look nice for pictures though.

[TominMO]

Strut bars do look nice for pictures though.

We could all chip in for one and just pass it around at Madness......:wink:

[Damkid]

Strut bars do look nice for pictures though.

I totally agree

[Advancedynamix]

Would you say it's more important to keep the front end stiff and let the rear end be a little more flexible? I.e. only buy the rear brace bar for rally/offroad. Buy the LCA bar on general principles, to tighten up the front; and the front strut tower bar for rally/offroad. Would adding stiffness via the front strut tower bar be a hindrance for fast street cornering? Or just not that much of a help?

For people who have cut their rear fenders in order to use flares for bigger rubber, the rear strut bar may be the ticket. With uncut, solid sheet metal back there you don't need a bar. If you are planning on exceeding the limits of the chassis back there, you're going to need more than a strut bar. At that point you'll be building a tube chassis race car. In stock trim this chassis is capable of out cornering some of the fastest sports cars in the world with ease. I'm not talking mustangs and camaros here folks. This car can turn under a Lotus Exige, or a Porsche GT3. I have lots of experience driving and building extremely fast high end road race cars and I have never seen a chassis take this much abuse. In fact, the only time I post on the Porsche sites is to brag about my Festiva. haha.
The front bars may be helpful if your front has been weakened somehow. Chris had to cut his Radiator supports to fit that enormous engine in, so he's going to need all the help he can get to keep the chassis from moving. He needs a removable front lower radiator support most of all though (hint hint)

Strut bars do look nice for pictures though.

They do look nice and the truth is that most people will never use these cars to their full potential on a racetrack so it doesn't matter how necessary the pieces are. This is a hobby and an art form. Your car is your canvas and your wrenches are your brushes. Paint your picture, not mine. I'd be bored to death if every Festiva looked like mine.

Fixed it, that didn't make sense.

[drddan]

I'd be bored to death if every Festiva looked like mine.

I wouldn't be bored with mine, if it looked like yours!

[Advancedynamix]

I wouldn't be bored with mine, if it looked like yours!

Thanks. At this point in time they are both engineless and in a thousand pieces all strewn about Arizona. Lol Time to get to work fixing that.

[TominMO]

Thanks again for great advice, Charlie!

[Damkid]

Qs for Charlie/Advancedynamix

[QUOTE=Advancedynamix;679618]
The front bars may be helpful if your front has been weakened somehow. Chris had to cut his Radiator supports to fit that enormous engine in, so he's going to need all the help he can get to keep the chassis from moving. He needs a removable front lower radiator support most of all though (hint hint)
/QUOTE]

Technically I didn't "need" to cut the rad support, it just made life way easier lol I think if I built another one, I could do it with no cutting at all

I totally agree your lower tie bar mod is a necessity but I'm going to go a different route and put power to the rear end instead lol

[F3BZ]

always valuable to hear an end users evaluation and honest opinion rather than the dubious claims of some aftermarket suppliers ad copy. i have no doubt that 1/2 the "tuner" parts i've accumulated will make no noticeable or even measurable difference other than to add weight. but some of it sure looks cool and probably triggers some psychological consternation if the competition gives your car a look over. there's been many comparison tests done by the major car mags that pit a "tuners" version against the equivalent factory spec car and usually the tuner version is less reliable and or actually slower than the factory ride.
no doubt compromises are made by the factory engineers/designers towards reliability, comfort, and cost but their depth of knowledge, resources, testing, quality control, etc. results in a vehicle whose systems work together. upgrading some components could affect others detrimentally. most here know though that they let the ball bounce by issuing 12" tires, and i wouldn't want to make a panic stop on stock brakes with 4 passengers and luggage but through the years and enthusiastic site members proven upgrades to improve these systems have been well sorted out.
i bought a strut bar from FMS, well, because it was a nice anodized blue. i won't sell it. i'll probably install it but i'll know it's just mostly eye candy.

[TominMO]

Charlie, what are the benefits and drawbacks of the Festy vs. the Aspire front anti-sway bar, for various types of driving? I think you use the Festy one.

[Advancedynamix]

The only advantage the aspire bar has is that it resists flex from TQ better than the Festiva bar. All the driving force from the engine is pushing the car by that sway bar. If you watch a high hp Festiva make a pull on a load bearing drum style dyno, you can see how much the bar flexes with power. The wheels move forward over an inch. This causes toe out and scrub which causes a loss of traction and potential for TQ steer. The Festivas suspension design is genius because the bar actually acts to absorb pulses that could cause a loss in traction, but it was designed to do this with a maximum of 120ft.lbs of TQ ( my rough estimate from watching dyno pulls).
The drawback to the aspire bar is that it's also a stiffer sway bar, which means it's making the suspension less independent and more prone to pull weight off one wheel to control body roll. You don't want to control body roll with your driving wheels. Pulling weight off the inside front wheel in a turn is going to reduce the amount of control the driver has over the cars direction of travel.
In a perfect world, the Festiva would have come with drag bars like the Rio got from 2000-2005. Nice stout bars, that are still curved and rubber mounted to absorb driveline pulses, but stiff enough to hold 300ft lbs of TQ in a 1700lb car.