camber adjustment bolts do I want them?

[rmoltis]

Hi guys,

As the title states. It has been recommended by zoom zoom that I consider a set of camber adjustment bolts.

I have looked into what they are and how they work. And I do think the would be nice to have.
The big question is... do I need them.

As anyone who's been watching my build lately knows.
I am upgrading my whole suspension system
And the new standard height king springs claim to be standard height.
But can tend to have some slight deviation due to manufacturing slightly less height maybe.

Also the custom coil spring isolators don't match stock heights exactly but very they are very close.
so height may be slightly off there too.

I am at the point now where I have some waiting time for new fasteners.
So it would be ideal for me to order these ASAP if they would be a good investment.

I would like to hear some user feedback on these bolts.
And to see if there are any pros or cons I should take into consideration before investing in a set.
which I'm assuming I would need 2 (1 for each front strut?)

Nolathane offers a camber bolt I may go with them only due to brand loyalty and preference.
Keep everything matching.

http://www.nolathane.com.au/mobile_product_detail.php?part_number=44250

[bravekozak]

All I know was that I was way out when I took my baby in for alignment.
Even rotating the top didn't bring it into spec. He had to install camber bolts.

[rmoltis]

So from what I have read so far about camber bolts.

Pros,

Offers an easy and cost effective method to return suspension settings to factory tolerances.
Reduces or increases camber by a small margin

Cons,

In order to be made into an eccentric bolt they have to use an undersized bolt compared to stock bolt.
Which means lower loading potential before breakage.

Also apparantly they can tend to come loose or change settings over time during driving.
Leading to frequent readjustment via alignments .

[bhazard]

If you're gonna get them just get some from Napa. No point in waiting for a shipment from Oz.

My alignment guy hates them. He says you're better off just slotting the upper hole in the lower strut mount.

[Advancedynamix]

I'm not sure about the aspire, but since it's basically a heavier Festiva, I can say that these cars drive much better with negative camber. The factory calls for positive camber, which is probably due to the wide range of countries these cars were sold in ( positive camber is better for mud and snow ruts, but not better for paved roads).

[rmoltis]

If anything these would only be used to help keep the cars alignment within spec.
I would not want any fancy camber adjustments.

Just a good contact patch daily driver.

I'm just not a fan of the idea of using a reduced diameter bolt
to support possibly increased forces in certain circumstances in the future.
Keeping the diameter as thick as possible may be my preference.

I will probably start with the baseline of an alignment.
Then work from there depending upon whether it stays within spec
Or if it changed enough to warrant a change.

[Movin]

I have never had a broken one come in. I have had mostly broken knuckles from an oops. Next is bent struts. I have had lower ball joints come in with loose bolts. I don't think I have ever had a problem with stock or camber bolts except having them stuck.

[Icedawg]

I went with smaller diameter bolts in the upper holes on one car, and with a slotted hole in another car. In both cases the bolt has the strength you need, no problem there, but if you hit potholes or curbs hard enough to damage a rim or tire then it will also shift the camber because the bolt can shift a bit. However, it takes that kind of force, anything less it can handle just fine, and if you get that much of an impact a new alignment is not a bad idea anyhow.
A friend used camber bolts from Napa or Bumper to Bumper, and they are a bit better. Being eccentric, they fill the bolt hole better, and provide more resistance to an impact, in terms of moving less if hit by a very large force.
I just took apart a Boxster suspension and put it back together and the factory uses eccentric bolts to adjust camber and toe on the rear.
Go ahead and use them, but yeah, just get 'em from Napa, they are not a fancy specialty item.

[zoom zoom]

You'd be wasting money buying them and keeping stock specs. You'd be wasting money upgrading suspension parts and not running negative camber too. There's a really big difference on say like an on/off ramp to the freeway between a stock alignment and one with negative camber.

[Advancedynamix]

^ what he said. The factory spec is not always the best, even for stock, easily driven, commuter. With the stock specs on a Festiva they tend to wear the tires unevenly and perform poorly compared to a proper setup. The aspire specs may be different however because the car is more modern (alignment specs have changed with time) and has wider tires than the festiva.

[rmoltis]

My main concern is tire wear.
I don't want to deal with the added expense of uneven tire wear.
I get my tires rotated. But that only helps so much.

Also this setup is mostly to help even out the extra 200 lbs of stereo equipment and full passenger load carrying ability.

As secondary functions it is for added handling and safety
as well as being able to navigate the car swallowing potholes of pittsburgh without bottoming out.

There are many days where I goto work when my car is loaded with equipment.
So 75% of the time I would not be going fast or taking corners hard. Just city driving.
But I would like to be able to get on it whenever I feel and have good results.



Hey advance. I respect your knowledge of festiva and suspension adjustments.
I just don't know enough about alignments to inflict positive change upon my vehicle.
I would not know where to start.

I understand what each category affects.
Just don't understand how to get it dialed in.

[Icedawg]

You are changing the suspension components from true stock, you are changing weight distribution with the stereo, and you run the car heavy. You care about tire wear. Those are enough reasons to add greater ability to adjust the alignment, even if your goal is a stock alignment.

[rmoltis]

I agree that I would want greater ability to adjust.
I just want to have to deal with the drawbacks of the cons of these bolts.


What I will do I think is get an alignment.
Then see where I stand camber wise.
Then if necessary I will go out and fetch me a set of these bolts to correct the problem.

The last option for me would be to take the strut assemblies off and elongate the bolt holes.
That would give the ability to adjust the camber values slightly.

This seems to be the way people have been doing it for years.

I could take the knuckle hub assembly off along with the strut assembly.
Then I could use the lower strut bolt to hinge the knuckle to on the outside edges of the strut.
Then I could use the natural travel motion to trace the boundaries of where the bolt would slide.
Then I could trim it down with my dremel.
I could make sure and find the points where the knuckle still clear the strut and end the holes at those points
in the negative and positive directions.

What do you guys think about this. I would retain stock bolt size.

[Movin]

That has worked well with my mkII struts and lift for off road, it should be strong enough for what you want to do.I had a strut blow in the rear from a jump and there was no warranty because of the modifications. Not that I deserved any lol.

[Advancedynamix]

My main concern is tire wear.
I don't want to deal with the added expense of uneven tire wear.
I get my tires rotated. But that only helps so much.

Also this setup is mostly to help even out the extra 200 lbs of stereo equipment and full passenger load carrying ability.

As secondary functions it is for added handling and safety
as well as being able to navigate the car swallowing potholes of pittsburgh without bottoming out.

There are many days where I goto work when my car is loaded with equipment.
So 75% of the time I would not be going fast or taking corners hard. Just city driving.
But I would like to be able to get on it whenever I feel and have good results.



Hey advance. I respect your knowledge of festiva and suspension adjustments.
I just don't know enough about alignments to inflict positive change upon my vehicle.
I would not know where to start.

I understand what each category affects.
Just don't understand how to get it dialed in.

I wouldn't suggest anything that would not be ideal for your situation. I learned most of what I know about fwd suspension tuning in the deep backwoods of New England, where the dirt roads are the smoothest. Positive camber will wear tires faster than negative camber, especially with added load on the vehicle. Camber is not what wears the tires as much as toe and you can run considerably less toe with a negatively cambered setup.
All the things you have mentioned as a concern are even more critical when driving on the edge in a race car. When your spending 800 dollars a set on tires that wear 4 times faster than typical street tires you want to align the car for the least amount of wear possible. When you are frequently driving the car at triple digit speeds, right alongside quarter of a million dollar exotic sports cars, you need the car to be predictable and easy to drive. The tests that I perform on my cars can cross over to anyone except Movin ( which he loves to point out haha).
I drove tweak 6000 miles at an average speed of 75mph in 2 weeks on brand new tires and barely wore off the casting fuzzies. That was with -2.8 degrees camber on all 4 corners. While at Madness I re aligned Fordfesters car. He was running factory specs and was having bad tire wear issues on his drive from south Dakota to North Carolina, with a heavy load in the car. After my adjustments he was very happy with the improved drive quality and the car no longer wore the tires.
I have spent thousands of hours dialing in these cars for every road situation ( except ATV trails) and can be confident that my advice is sound.
BTW, I don't just drive on race tracks and perfectly paved roads. Arizona has about 100k miles of unmarked dirt roads, most of which have no posted speed limit. The washboard sections are a testimony to a well setup suspension, and Tweak was all to familiar with this pounded gravel surface.