Sway Bar Delete

[sketchman]

Probably mostly a Charlie question I'm sure, but it might as well be out here for whoever wants to know.

So I'm assuming you'd need to make up for the lack of roll control by using extra long bump stops instead?

Also what about the type of joint up front? Any reason not to use a bearing rod end? Would an off the shelf poly bushing be better for a street/road car?

I'm going to do something because it's either wait a month to 2 months for the proper bushings, or fab something, and I'm always up for learning and building.

I will also have height adjustable DIY coilovers when this is all done if that makes a difference.

[TominMO]

What is your thinking on why you would want to remove the sway bar? I could see it if you were going to convert it to a 4WD and wanted more articulation for longer suspension, but otherwise....

[Eaglefreek]

Doesn't the front sway bar perform two duties? Roll control and supporting the control arms from fore and aft movement?

[Advancedynamix]

Replacing the front sway bar with trailing links (drag links) like a Kia Rio uses will allow the car to have a more compliant front suspension. This is important for traction, braking, accelerating and turning. Roll control can be handled with slower (stiffer) rebound dampening on the front, as well as a slightly faster spring rate rise ( which comes from switching to the narrower "adjustable coil over" coils.
The bulk of roll control on a FWD car should be handled by the rear suspension. Shorter rear shocks with slower (stiffer) compression dampening will control the body's roll much better than the stock front bar. Again, a faster rate rise in the rear will also help control the roll.
The MK1 VW rear shocks offer both shorter length and slower compression dampening for a comparable price to KYB aspire shocks.
The reason you don't want to control body roll with your front end is because the action of controlling the weight transfer will result in unloading a driving and controlling wheel. Unloading a driving (front) wheel that also controls the direction the car is going is not optimal.
By using the rear suspension to control the roll, the front is compliant, and can freely follow the ground. If the front suspension is free to follow the contour of the driving surface, while the rear end controls the lateral attitude of the chassis, the car can accelerate, brake and turn in more efficiently.
The drawback to changing this balance on these cars is a reduction of high speed stability on rough, loose surfaces such as washboarded gravel roads. For washboard gravel road travel, I would just restore the Festiva with original (or as close to it as possible) parts.

[TominMO]

I have noticed with my Aspire that just by installing the rear VW KYBs, with stock Aspire springs, the roll is less and it turns more sharply. Haven't touched the front yet, and am running 155/80-13s.

[Advancedynamix]

I have noticed with my Aspire that just by installing the rear VW KYBs, with stock Aspire springs, the roll is less and it turns more sharply. Haven't touched the front yet, and am running 155/80-13s.

The shock valving and reduction in rear sag (aka droop) make a very noticeable difference, even when just being driven like a typical commuter car. When driven on the edge of control, the difference is like you're not even driving the same vehicle. These cars were built to handle anything you can conceive driving them through, but most of us (Movin excluded) only drive on public roads. The Festiva has about 3" of excess travel in the rear for most public roads in North American countries (okay, the northern two, Mexico has horrible public roadways). By removing the excess travel in the rear, and slowing the compression dampening, the car now handles like a much more expensive vehicle.
A set of cheap VW shocks (or expensive, like Tom is experimenting with) can add thousands of dollars to the ride quality of these little cars.

[sketchman]

Good stuff. Thanks.

[Movin]

Advanced, everthing you said applies really, it is just finding the same equilibrium at a higher altitude and focusing on longer travel.

The challenge is steering and suspension angles and CV shaft dynamics are unique at higher elevations. Trade offs become a real discussion. Progressive and longer and softer springs, more shock dampening, length of control arm, cv shaft and tie rod. Ground clearance and maximum angles.. Approach angle and wheel base length verses change in....

Shoot, I should just hang some festiva sheet metal on a RazR lol and love bein excluded !!

[F3BZ]

once again, an interesting explanation and food for thought, using the non-multi tasking rear suspension do more than just go along for the ride. i wonder, if you are using the rear to control roll, would it be beneficial to stiffen the floor pan/boxed sections of the body to more directly transfer some of that roll control to the front, or is some amount of body twist desireable? if it was available, would a 20mm front swaybar be a performance upgrade?
kia shows a different swaybar part# for the 1.1L prides. i thought it might be thinner but the bar bushing # is the same for both the 1.1 and 1.3L cars. maybe the 1.1 bar is hollow. 4GREEN shows both at a reasonable price. except for shipping

[sketchman]

Gonna do this.

My local mechanic friend and shop owner thinks I'm crazy to want to have no sway bar, but I'm gonna email him Charlie's in depth explanation up there.

[Movin]

Emailing him won't change the fact that we all are crazy ! lol

[sketchman]

lol True. And proud.

[Dragonhealer]

No no, my shrink was very clear on this, I'm OK, but the rest of the world is crazy! No, wait, well it was something like that, (mumble mumble...)

[TominMO]

The shock valving and reduction in rear sag (aka droop) make a very noticeable difference, even when just being driven like a typical commuter car. When driven on the edge of control, the difference is like you're not even driving the same vehicle. These cars were built to handle anything you can conceive driving them through, but most of us (Movin excluded) only drive on public roads. The Festiva has about 3" of excess travel in the rear for most public roads in North American countries (okay, the northern two, Mexico has horrible public roadways). By removing the excess travel in the rear, and slowing the compression dampening, the car now handles like a much more expensive vehicle.
A set of cheap VW shocks (or expensive, like Tom is experimenting with) can add thousands of dollars to the ride quality of these little cars.

I want to reiterate something I said in another thread. IMO the VW KYB rear shocks are the way to go, bang-for-buck. Unless you have some racing need for the best possible shocks available, you don't need the Bilsteins. Over 95% of us will be quite happy with the far less expensive VW shocks. I have the Bilsteins on my Festy, and the VW KYBs on my Aspire. I won't say no difference, but I would have to do a back-to-back comparison on the same car to tell, and it's not gonna be much.

[sketchman]

^Good to know. I have Aspire KYBs for mine, but I'll keep that in mind for the future.