Downsize from 15 to 13" lightweights

[Click_It]

Hi guys,

Winnie is becoming a daily driver again soon, and with a stock B3 it's current 15x6 (195x50) wheels are just too heavy. The novelty of big wheels (for a Festy at least) has worn off.

I've been looking for the usual candidates (Enkei, Rays, Honda VX/HX etc) without success - finding these wheels in Australia is proving difficult.

Anyway today I found some Tom's Igeta's (13 x 5.5). I'm trying to get the weight info but based some of their other models "Tom's New Action" 14x6 (11.1lbs) and 15x6.5 (12.2lbs) I'm quietly confident these should be nice and light.

Changing from my 15's should make a huge difference in performance, handling and economy. WIN/WIN/WIN. If I were to get these wheels I'd probably clean them up and have them painted charcoal or black, but that's not important yet.

What are your thoughts? (And yes 4x100, I am Aspire swapped)



Also offsets, from memory +38-40 is the sweet spot, I imagine +35 will be fine but just wanted to double check with you guys.

I can get 175/60 or 185/60 tyres. Both are very close to speedo calibrated (especially compared to my +5% current 195/50/R15s)

[jbibb1]

Those are nice wheels - what are the gold colored squares beside them? I run 15x7s with 195/50/15s on two of my cars and have no issue with the weight. What kind of advantages are you looking to gain by losing a few pounds in wheel weight?

[Click_It]

Gains I'm aiming for is torque / power improvements , followed by economy. Our festy's had less power than yours, we didn't get fuel injection so ours are similar to your early (88?) models. The car used to be a lot more responsive on the stock 13" steelies (In Australia, festy's got 13" not 12" stock wheels) and I don't imagine those 13" steelies were light. So my theory is, 13" lightweight wheels should make a huge difference, especially with smaller lighter tyres. But if I am over-estimating the gains please let me know.

Steering is also very heavy, though I'm a big guy so it doesn't faze me but my wife (110lbs) refuses to drive it currently lol.

Your other question, the square things are the center caps.



These wheels are direct from Japan, air freight included in the price.

[Click_It]

Just found some specs on the larger Igeta's - 18x7.5 rims = 16.3lbs, so that looks really promising for rims 5 inches smaller!

[Advancedynamix]

All you need to do is change your tires. You are feeling the final drive ratio much more than the weight of the wheel package. A set of 165/45-15 tires will give you the performance back that you lost with those big clunky (for a Festiva) tires.
Too wide and too tall a tire is a really poor choice on these lightweight cars.

Also, there may be options for you in a 14x6 wheel that would help you trim a little weight and get a better tire size. A 165/55/14 will fit a 14x6 (common 80's VW RIM size, as well as BMW e30, and Miata.)

[Click_It]

Advancedynamix: are you saying that the small lightweight wheels won't make much more noticeable Improvement over simply changing my tires?

I don't mind throwing some money at this as the alternative is buying a new car which will cost 4-5 times as much. My wife wants me to buy a new car but I know the festiva still has life left in her yet, 120k and mechanically sound.

But if I have this completely wrong then please let me know

[jason_]

But if I have this completely wrong then please let me know

You are wrong. She's always right.


Sent from my One using Tapatalk

[Click_It]

Lol. Problem is her solution will cost me about $9000. I can get the festiva running great again for a tiny fraction of that Saving up for a larger home loan so every cent helps right now.

The alternative is a 3.6L V6 or 6.0L V8 car running on Injected LPG (running costs comparable to the tiny 1.3L petrol festy believe it or not) - nice idea but trying to save my pennies right now and buy that later.

[sketchman]

Wait what?

LPG 6.0 or 3.6 comparable to a 1.3 gas engine?

[Click_It]

Running on LPG at 60c vs Petrol here $1.40 (sorry on my phone can't do the $/gallon $USD conversions) but you get the idea (less than 1/2 price fuel at around 70% efficiency depending on driving and the type of injection used (liquid or vapour) those larger cars on LPG cost $40 to fill every 430KM, I'm currently paying $39 to fill up ever 400KM in the Festiva. Admittedly the weight reductions should improve that a little, my average 31MPG could be better.

So yes, unbelievably both are very comparable. Ultimately that's the way I'm going so I can tow boats etc, right now I'm trying to postpone the idea.

Equally true is running a Diesel car, slightly more popular in Australia than USA but still nothing near the popularity in Europe. A 2.0L Turbo Diesel is far cheaper to drive on (though more in servicing costs) - But let's be honest, diesels are less fun.

Back to the original question on cutting unsprung weight in the Festiva?

[Advancedynamix]

Advancedynamix: are you saying that the small lightweight wheels won't make much more noticeable Improvement over simply changing my tires?

I don't mind throwing some money at this as the alternative is buying a new car which will cost 4-5 times as much. My wife wants me to buy a new car but I know the festiva still has life left in her yet, 120k and mechanically sound.

But if I have this completely wrong then please let me know

Yeah. The gearing change that you've made by running 195/50-15 is quite significant. Add to that the extra width of the tire, which increases rolling resistance and you have drastically reduced the cars ability to quickly accelerate and brake, as well as increasing fuel consumption. I have several sets of 13, 14 & 15" wheels for my Festiva, and I can tell you first hand that the tire size is much more critical than the wheel weight. Also, the tires often times outweigh the wheels. You'll save quite a bit of weight per corner by switching to 165/45-15 tires. 165/50-15 would work well too. I wouldn't run any wider than a 175mm street tire on a Festiva that had a b3 engine mounted in the stock location. 165mm is ideal.

[Click_It]

Yeah. The gearing change that you've made by running 195/50-15 is quite significant. Add to that the extra width of the tire, which increases rolling resistance and you have drastically reduced the cars ability to quickly accelerate and brake, as well as increasing fuel consumption. I have several sets of 13, 14 & 15" wheels for my Festiva, and I can tell you first hand that the tire size is much more critical than the wheel weight. Also, the tires often times outweigh the wheels. You'll save quite a bit of weight per corner by switching to 165/45-15 tires. 165/50-15 would work well too. I wouldn't run any wider than a 175mm street tire on a Festiva that had a b3 engine mounted in the stock location. 165mm is ideal.

Okay interesting. Yes I have heard before the tire is more important than wheel in weight reduction due to it being further from the center of things (lack of technical term eludes me)

I wish I had looked into this further before getting my current tires, I guess I just looked at what everyone here was running without factoring in most of you have B6/BP(T) engines, not a B3 and certainly not a Carb'd B3 like me.

Can 165's go on 15x6 rims fine? I've never chosen such narrow tires on a relatively wider rim before.

I'll check prices on both 165/45 and 165/50, the latter makes the speedo almost perfect but I don't mind the speedo being under either so it'll come down to tread selection.

Potentially you've just saved me $600 and a much less painful 480 mile drive next week (hills are torture on the highway atm). I'll reserve my thanks until I have felt the improvement tho

[Advancedynamix]

165mm tires fit square on 6" wheels. I have run them on 6", 7" and even 7.5" wide wheels. Here is a picture of a set of my 165/45-15 federal Formoza tires mounted on 15x6 O.Z. rally wheels ( actually made by Enkei).



And here is a picture of the same tires mounted on my 15x7 Enkei rp01 wheels. A little stretch, but they ride nicely and I've had no issues with them. The car handles like a go cart on this setup.



This photo shows 15x6 O.Z. 15x7 Enkei rp02 and 15x6.5 Rota Sliptreams, all with 165/45-15 federal tires. The red and blue car are still b3, the blue one is a carby.



I've purchased 5 sets of these tires because I like them so much on my Festivas. I'm trying the 165/55-14 on some 14x7 O.Z. turbines on my current build. I'll post pictures when the setup is finished.

[Click_It]

165mm tires fit square on 6" wheels. I have run them on 6", 7" and even 7.5" wide wheels. Here is a picture of a set of my 165/45-15 federal Formoza tires mounted on 15x6 O.Z. rally wheels ( actually made by Enkei).

I'm so glad you found this thread you've been very helpful. Those O.Z. wheels look awesome by the way (actually they all are v nice). Sweet collection of festys you have I'm green with envy. And loving the 165/45's they look like rubber bands!

I've found both 165/50 and 165/45 tires so choice is no problem. My mindset has moved partly away from unsprung weight-loss and more to lower gearing which I think is partly what you were saying? See my 195/50's also put my diameter +6.1% over stock (stock being 165/65/13 in Australia) so if I were to run with 165/45 I'd be -2.8% under diameter (a whopping -8.9% lower than current). There'll be some unsprung weight reduction but I'm betting the gains felt will be from that gearing difference. Am I on the right track?

I found out today there is a law in Australia, can't go +/-15mm diameter from stock, which means I've been illegal for the last few years (mine is +32mm, whoops). Running 165/45 will also be -15.2mm under so I need to determine if that's going to be a problem because I actually have to run the car over the pits later this year where they'll check everything with a fine tooth comb (maybe they'll let 0.2mm slide, that's seriously nothing).

I don't mind the speedo being out, I'd prefer under than over. You obviously aren't bothered either.

PS: What coilovers did you use? mk2/3 vw golf? Still running on aspire springs/struts right now, was going to get lowered sprints/struts this week but damn yours look good sitting so low like that

[Advancedynamix]

You are correct with the gearing assumption based on your calculations of diameter and circumference. Also, the width and tire weight are big factors.
If you run a 165/50-15 you'll be very close to stock overall diameter. My Speedo actually seems more correct with these tires on the B6T swapped car, but it has a g15mr tranny, so that may have an effect.
You should notice better wet weather traction with the narrower tires. These cars are very light and hydroplane easily in the rear with too wide a tire. Also, the footprint of the 165mm tire is actually placing more pressure on the tread, so traction is improved overall.

If you read the "Advanced Suspension Modification" thread that is stickied in this forum section, you will get an overview of my suspension development for these cars. You are driving a car with enormous handling potential. With a little ingenuity, your Festiva (121, Pride, ect) can out handle 90 percent of the roadgoing automobiles on the planet. Enjoy!