Anti-sway bar steel

[meyek91974]

Otherwise, really stiffening with a sway bar increases potential likeliness of over&under steering in comparison of tire quality/conditions v actuated camber and tire to road contact angle necessary for proper tire traction and wear. Also, with such an increased lack in body angle transfer, you're removing the extent of real wheel independence in suspension that reduces the suspensions' opportunity to react in ability with individual wheel movement. Meaning, aside from when going around a turn and the outer tire having to grip but not having proper camber adjustment opportunity by suspension design, then the excess weight shift by the "whole weight" shift of the auto would undoubtedly cause inner wheel lift, reducing traction and stability. As well, when traveling flat and in a straight line, the effects of one tire rolling over a bump or pothole would be magnified as individual wheel movement shift or transfer of road effect throughout the end (ie back of car to other wheel) and inertia energy transference of one wheel rolling over one bump and shoving the lift movement and felt impact of said bump through to other wheel. - - Im thinking the sway bar torsion rate is not matched to at-wheel spring rate, travel, and shock/strut dampen rate, or adjusted camber degree for wheel angle differentiation at X-speed in a Y-degree angle curve turn causing N-amount of defined body roll.

[Advancedynamix]

hmm a lot of ideas here. Thanks for so much feedback.
Advance I was not sure what you meant about the shock sag. I have cut, front Festi springs on the rear to stiffen a bit from stock rear rates, and lower the ride an inch or so, but I am not sure if that is related.
It sure looks like Kia just welded in the bar for the Aspire, so there must be some spring steel that can take welding.
First, I am simply trying to duplicate the Aspire rear beam, which does weld a rod into two holes in the Festi beam that are already there. It is well documented on this site that the Aspire rear beam is stiffer, but still bends, and makes the car handle better. Note I already have an Aspire front sway bar to accommodate lowering the cross member for the G25mr tranny, so the Aspire style rear is a better match.
Duplicating Kia's choice for how to stiffen the axle is a proven method.

Second, I have not located an Aspire axle, but have a Festi axle. Besides I want to keep the Festi bolt pattern given all my investment in race rims, and the fact I do not need much for braking when ice racing anyhow, so do not benefit from the heavier Aspire brakes. And the Aspire rear axle will not accept Festi hubs without drilling them out and weakening them. I did it once, but do not like it.

Third my current broken axle used a third world solution, and it is a fail. Three times the bolts holding the rod stiffener bolted to the welded on plates sheared. And then the plates, welded on to mount the bolts to, induced enough stress at the weld to be the weak point where the axle snapped in half. So, for racing that is a double fail.

Perhaps I could handle it with coilovers, I am not sure though. I want the soft springs I have, so coilovers seem a bit costly as a choice. When ice racing there is very little body lean, with no grip you slide instead of lean. So soft springs are needed to get lean and weight transfer. Soft shocks too, because the rough ice surface means a lot of pounding up and down. You also need a lot of travel to still be available. Hence a sway bar seems about right, which in the case of rear beam axle design means stiffening it with a rod for most manufacturers.

Sorry, I never answered this.

Rear shocks length and valving rate is the best way to control body roll on these cars. If you have less sag (the amount the shock/spring compresses until it holds the car up) then you reduce the amount that the body can roll without hindering the compliancy of the rear beam as a sway bar does. This provides added roll resistance without sacrificing grip (as noted by meyek91974).
Furthermore, adjusting the shock valving, spring rate cherictaristics and bump stop density and thickness will allow you to fine tune the body roll that does exist. Body roll can be a huge advantage in racing if the driver knows how to work with the roll and fine tune it. I use body roll rebound to do ninja-like early apexs at insane speeds. This is a very common off road technique (Pro rally drivers set every curve up with body roll and chassis control in mind.)

[Icedawg]

Hey, if you can help me understand what you're wanting to do as I think I'm missing the plainly obvious.
You want a rear sway bar. OK- and instead of hitting a junk yard to snag one off an Aspire, Subaru, small Mazda, Vdub, or whatever, you're making one???
If I'm not missing out on something, wouldnt it work to get a Cabrio or small Toyota sway bar, make/mount it to the underbody, and get some sway bar end links to bolt to the rear end of the Festiva????
Also, are you matching roll weight strength or transferred inertia weight shift with front sway bar as otherwise you'd have a differing stiff rear and sloppy swaying front?

sorry if I misunderstand, but correct me if Im wrong; this sounds easier, simpler, cheaper than all that mocking up creativity

I suppose you must misunderstand. It does seems plainly obvious to me. I simply want to make the Festiva rear axle the same as the Aspire rear axle, by the same mod Kia did. And putting the Aspire rear axle on a Festiva is a well liked mod discussed many times on this site, not some strange modification.
What mocking up creativity? What is cheaper and simpler than doing what Kia already did, in welding a rod into the holes already there on the Festiva rear axle to make an Aspire rear axle? Why get a sway bar off another car and struggle with how to build mounts onto the Festiva chassis around the gas tank, and then tie it to points on the axle, when you can simply take advantage of the design Kia already made? I do agree if I could buy an Aspire axle from a junkyard that would be easier, but none have showed up here in well over a year. Simply cutting a steel rod to length and welding it in is hardly difficult or creative. All I wanted to know was if a special spring steel is used in creating a torsion bar.

In terms of relative rates in the rear, I would be using an Aspire-like axle with about the same spring rate as the Aspire. I already have KYB struts for the Aspire, and front springs from a Festiva on the rear, that are no more than ~10 lb/in more than the stock Aspire rears. It is only a little stiffer than an Aspire, for the slightly lighter weight of a Festiva. So these parts all go together as well as Kia & Ford intended for the Aspire.

The front is not all sloppy compared to the rear, currently it is the other way around. I have Aspire front springs, shortened a bit and so stiffer, and Aspire front struts, and an Aspire sway bar, which is thicker and heavier than the Festiva bar. I have that bar to accommodate the way the B6T and G25mr transmission are mounted. So I am looking to stiffen the rear a touch to match the front. Right now I have closer to the opposite of what you describe above, a sloppy rear and a stiff front. This will match better. Currently it is not as well balanced around the corner, as it could be, and this mod will help.

One of my previous axles was an Aspire, and the car worked better then, so I am looking to replicate it.

Finally, we are talking about ice here. Ice makes gravel and mud rally roads look like the grip you could get at COTA. A small increase in spring rate using Aspire springs on the front and festiva fronts on the rear is enough for the amount of body roll one gets on ice, more would not be productive. I know, I have tried. But the original Festiva springs are too soft, and the car bounces too much, causing a loss of control. Tried that too. The FWD on ice plows, it needs to rotate better, the Aspire rear axle did help it rotate better before it was too bent to use. Stiffening the Festiva axle to replicate the Aspire should do the same. And again, this is simply making it stiffer in the same way as Kia did, by adding another torsion bar to the inside of the beam of the rear axle.

[meyek91974]

Icedawg, thanks for explaining it all. I dont mean to be a hassle with the questions. I just got my Festiva in Jan and am still learning here.
Hey, I dont know if it's cost effective, but when I was at my local Pull-A-Part this past weekend, they have a 1994 Aspire that just arrived 22JUL. The body's in great shape and hasnt been picked over. You can look it up on the pap website in Louisville, Kentucky to see if they'll ship the rear sway bar or whatever you need if it helps. I see that youre in Edmonton, and as you mention ice driving I presume that's in Alberta and not Edmonton, KY. I dont even know if it's worth having stuff shipped like this, but I guess it doesnt hurt to mention as the car's in good shape.

[Advancedynamix]

The bouncing is a result of improper shock valving. I definitely don't have experience setting FWD cars up for ice, so I can't say what will work best, but I like to try to add grip whenever possible, rather than loosening one end. If you're having trouble with the car pushing, you may be better off getting the front end to hook up and turn in better (yeah, I know that's easier said than done on frozen lakes, lol)
If you listen to those who say, "it's FWD, that's why it pushes, you need to make the rear looser" than you'll never optimise the chassis. I know that as a fact.

[ryanprins13]

Anti-sway bar steel

The bouncing is a result of improper shock valving. I definitely don't have experience setting FWD cars up for ice, so I can't say what will work best, but I like to try to add grip whenever possible, rather than loosening one end. If you're having trouble with the car pushing, you may be better off getting the front end to hook up and turn in better (yeah, I know that's easier said than done on frozen lakes, lol)
If you listen to those who say, "it's FWD, that's why it pushes, you need to make the rear looser" than you'll never optimise the chassis. I know that as a fact.

That may be the cause of the bouncing but the factory springs are way too soft for what they do. These are the tires he is using you really arent going to get more grip than that on ice, lol. Even with those they are sliding these cars around corners at insane speeds. He is trying to lessen body roll in the rear rather than loosen it. On ice with these tires you want weight to be on each side fairly evenly. More even weight on both tires gives you more traction than more weight on one once you get to a certain point. Once your sliding on one of those tires you need another tire with more spikes in the ice rather than more weight on the sliding tire

[Advancedynamix]

By loosen, I mean make the car easier to break loose. Anti roll bars and stiffer spring rates will reduce roll, but at the cost of grip. I have used stock spring rates to pitch and slide these cars at extreme speeds with more grip than you'll ever get on ice (R35A hoosier slicks on a road coarse at well over 100mph.)
The spring rates aren't as much of a problem as the sag and the shock valving. In fact, adding extra rate to the stock valving with the stock sag will only make the car bounce worse and break loose faster.
With a reduction in sag, you can run a softer rate and still have less body roll while improving grip. That's because Suspension component geometry is the most important part of the equation.

[drddan]

Charlie, show the pic of how you are hard into a corner and the front inside tire is flattening a little because the down force there! That's how a good suspension setup works

[Advancedynamix]

Sliding into the apex of a corner at around 90mph at INDE Motorsport Ranch. This was on Toyo Proxes R888 tires, stock sway bars. 150lb front springs, 120lb rears and rear shocks shortened 3" from stock. I can now go through that same corner about 12mph faster with the VW kyb shocks that I run and SOFTER 105 lb springs in the rear and SOFTER 120lb front springs. More grip allows me to maintain more momentum. Shorter shocks with stiffer rebound rates control the rate at which the car leans over into
a curve. The trick to going fast isn't making the car stay perfectly flat, It's tuning the chassis to dance around the track with the maximum amount of grip on both ends.

[Icedawg]

The trick to going fast isn't making the car stay perfectly flat, It's tuning the chassis to dance around the track with the maximum amount of grip on both ends.

Well I left this conversation alone for a while. But I believe that what you say in this quote is what I am trying to do.

Here is what Julian, FestyFreak39, described that he did to tune the chassis for ice racing, and he has done a lot of it in a Festiva.
from post trailer park fresh
Aspire swap, new control arms, bushings, new calipers, new pads, new disks, new control arm bushings, new tie rod ends

Went out ice racing. car worked great! The b6 is running like a peach now, might leave it in for the summer and focus on the suspension/chassis development. Finally found the perfect recipe for ice racing after way too many years racing festivas:

1) festiva front swaybar
2) aspire rear swaybar/swap
3) new struts

The B6T and G series mounts I have mean lowering the engine, and that means I need to use the Aspire front sway bar, not the Festy, so I need to use the Aspire rear axle. Or turn the Festi rear axle into the Aspire by welding in a torsion bar in the centre of the beam the way Kia did, if I can duplicate that. It will get me close to this arrangement, and I already know it works far better than what I have now. It is a question of tuning both ends to be well matched, not overdoing one end. Right now I have the opposite of what Julian describes, and it is not properly balanced.

The picture Charlie posted above shows the whole issue. There is no grip on ice that would ever make the car do that to the front or rear tires. So the solutions are not entirely the same. Most of the discussion here is appropriate for conditions where traction is possible, even dirt track has more traction. I don't feel any g-force in a corner when I am ice racing, although when I focus really hard on it I can tell there is a little bit.

I fully agree soft springs and the right shocks work well. But I can say with certainty that the stock rear suspension is dangerous when ice racing. Not in the corners but on the straights where the ruts and bumps can get the whole car pogo-ing and darting around almost uncontrollably. So 5-10 pound higher spring rate in the rear works wonders to stop that. Perhaps that is because the shock valving is better matched to the spring rate, since Charlie suggests the bouncing occurs when it is not matched, though higher spring rates are often harder for a shock to control. Perhaps shortening the travel could too, but front Festi and Aspire springs are free compared to modifying a shock.

[Advancedynamix]

You may want to talk to Julian since he came down here and actually felt what I'm talking about for himself. He's been on a mission since he got back to duplicate what he felt on his ride in Pedro.
Your pogo-ing is due to a spring rate vs spring rate vs valving rates problem. You don't want stiffer spring rates for ice. It may make the car feel more stable and make you feel faster, but you are headed in the wrong direction if you want traction. To correct the bouncing you need different shock valving. I'd suggest stiffer front rebound dampening to start with. It's common to hear people want to match spring rates to the shock dampeners and call that a good setup. Anyone with years of racing experience tuning high end suspension will tell you that the valving on one end or corner of the car needs to compliment the other end or corner of the car just as much as it controls the individual shock itself. This is the art of chassis dynamics.

[Dragonhealer]

I suppose you must misunderstand. It does seems plainly obvious to me. I simply want to make the Festiva rear axle the same as the Aspire rear axle, by the same mod Kia did. And putting the Aspire rear axle on a Festiva is a well liked mod discussed many times on this site, not some strange modification.
What mocking up creativity? What is cheaper and simpler than doing what Kia already did, in welding a rod into the holes already there on the Festiva rear axle to make an Aspire rear axle? Why get a sway bar off another car and struggle with how to build mounts onto the Festiva chassis around the gas tank, and then tie it to points on the axle, when you can simply take advantage of the design Kia already made? I do agree if I could buy an Aspire axle from a junkyard that would be easier, but none have showed up here in well over a year. Simply cutting a steel rod to length and welding it in is hardly difficult or creative. All I wanted to know was if a special spring steel is used in creating a torsion bar.

In terms of relative rates in the rear, I would be using an Aspire-like axle with about the same spring rate as the Aspire. I already have KYB struts for the Aspire, and front springs from a Festiva on the rear, that are no more than ~10 lb/in more than the stock Aspire rears. It is only a little stiffer than an Aspire, for the slightly lighter weight of a Festiva. So these parts all go together as well as Kia & Ford intended for the Aspire.

The front is not all sloppy compared to the rear, currently it is the other way around. I have Aspire front springs, shortened a bit and so stiffer, and Aspire front struts, and an Aspire sway bar, which is thicker and heavier than the Festiva bar. I have that bar to accommodate the way the B6T and G25mr transmission are mounted. So I am looking to stiffen the rear a touch to match the front. Right now I have closer to the opposite of what you describe above, a sloppy rear and a stiff front. This will match better. Currently it is not as well balanced around the corner, as it could be, and this mod will help.

One of my previous axles was an Aspire, and the car worked better then, so I am looking to replicate it.

Finally, we are talking about ice here. Ice makes gravel and mud rally roads look like the grip you could get at COTA. A small increase in spring rate using Aspire springs on the front and festiva fronts on the rear is enough for the amount of body roll one gets on ice, more would not be productive. I know, I have tried. But the original Festiva springs are too soft, and the car bounces too much, causing a loss of control. Tried that too. The FWD on ice plows, it needs to rotate better, the Aspire rear axle did help it rotate better before it was too bent to use. Stiffening the Festiva axle to replicate the Aspire should do the same. And again, this is simply making it stiffer in the same way as Kia did, by adding another torsion bar to the inside of the beam of the rear axle.

I have never tuned a chassis for ice racing, but sometimes it is simpler to try something to find out.
I have an Aspire rear torsion bar cut loose (hole saw), shall I find out how much to ship?

[Advancedynamix]

Just a few things that I've observed from racing these cars on tarmac and pounding them severely on gravel and clay roads;
The rear beam angle is critical to the stability of the car over bumps. These cars are scary to drive hard if they are too high or too low.
Second, weight transfer control is critical. It doesn't matter what surface you are on, the goal is to get or keep the weight over the wheels you need it on to do what you need to do. I've found shock valving to be the most effective way to adjust the dynamics of the body roll and weight transfer. I've had a lot of practice tuning the valving on lots of different cars, and I can tell you first hand that if stiffer springs are helping to stabilize things in the rear, that means your front shocks have too fast of a low speed rebound dampening and you are just fighting that with higher spring rates. Higher spring rates and stiffer roll bars are good for covering up other problems, but the results will be a loss in traction.
A long time racing engineer said it best, "Any suspension system can work, if you don't let it."
The racing world is loaded with people who don't know how to tune a chassis, so they just cripple it and do the best they can. Those types sell a lot of flashy parts, but aren't the ones responsible for winning many serious championships.

[festyfreak39]

OK! here is what I have figured out so far:

1) My original setup of festiva rear sway bar and festiva front sway bar was garbage. Car was under steer city. (bad news don't do it)
2) My second original setup of Aspire front sway bar and Aspire Rear sway bar was garbage. Car was under steer city. I think this was the worst possible setup (bad news don't do it)
3) My 3rd setup, seems to have worked the best: Fesitva front sway bar, aspire rear bar. The car Is MUCH MUCH more predictable and I am able to rotate it on ice on a dime. The car felt very fast and Jed you can see from my video the car was actually pretty quick, was able to catch up to the studded Miata car with rubber tires. This was night and day.
4) Blown shocks are not better then new shocks. learned that lesson too. (old ice race myth)

Now here are the things im thinking:

1) I think robin used a rear sway bar from a Miata. So far out of all the festivas I believe his has been the best handling. I can do a drawing for you jed to show you how he did it. very simple setup. This year it was a rocket ship and no one could catch him remotely. Chris also said he put a wicked alignment on the car. Gave the car some toe in, and a bit of camber. Chris is convinced the festiva handling good on ice is all alignment.

2) Setting up a car for ice is very tricky. What works in studs doesn't work in rubber. Kevins car was on studs and was unstoppable (civic) however he went to rubber tires and the car was a disaster.

3) What im thinking: Dad and I did some pretty interesting testing this year, we removed the front sway bar out of both focuses and left the rear. The car was much more responsive, and his lap times dropped dramatically. Went from a last place car to him being able to pull huge leads at the beginning of the race. The car fell flat on its face near the end with an open diff.

I think for my actual ice race car, im going to try to use the aspire rear beam, stock festiva springs cut a bit to lower ride height, but with a bit of camber front and rear. Lastly, I may try retrofit mazda 323 control arms to eliminate the front festiva sway bar.

Its hard to describe ice racing to everyone, Think of entering a corner at 130kmph, but the turn in process starts happening somewhere 4-7 car lengths before the actual breaking point. (if there is one) and having absolutely no traction, lateral grip, or forward grip.

I'm building the advanced coilover for summer, but I may take my car and its summer setup on ice just out of curiosity during the school. Ice is super confusing to say the least. No rules apply. The only success ive had is trying multiple things. I feel softer springs work better but the mk1 golf I got to drive a couple years back had super stiff springs on ice and it worked great, but the civic doesn't.

[ryanprins13]

What seems unfortunate with ice racing is the lack of places to practise. Or are there places here i dont know about?

With studded and bolted tires i dont think traction has a whole lot to do with the tire itself. You need enough weight or psi on the contact patch to push the metal into the ice but once thats done its left up to the strength of the ice resisting the stud or bolt shredding it.
So reducing weight transfer is key so both your tires are pushing the studs into the ice. Weight transfer Adding weight to the outside tire while cornering doesnt give it more traction i dont think.
So how do you reduce weight transfer?

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