Stranded in DC on mothersday... ford = bad news.

[roycehof]

Dang Skeeter, WHEN IT RAINS, IT POURS. No good deed goes un-punished. Seems like the pump may be intermittent. I don't know whether or not this is one of the vehicles with the ignition modules on the distributors that were intermittent or not, but I know Ford had a BIG BIG problem with the modules on the distributors. They would fail hot and work again when cold and get progressively worse. I actually took one apart when I was working in microelectronics and it was a failed aluminum wirebond. I had to remove the potting (I think I used hot toluene) and you could see the fracture wirebond under the microscope going from the substrate to the power transistor. I actually reworked it and put a thinned out conformal coating on it and tested it and it worked. (Kept it as a spare in the glove box after I verified it worked). If this thing has that module on the distributor, that might be the culprit. We were equally baffled when the condition first showed up. A certified Ford mechanic I knew told me to change the module and stop wasting time diagnosing. Turned out to be good advise in the end.
Best of Luck to you and your dad,
Royce

[jglutz]

Hmmmm.....the dealership should have been able to connect to the ECU without the engine running and force open-loop control just to start monitoring some of the I/O signals....odd.

Not sure about late model Fords; but, GM's have a jumper that is installed to force open loop control.....if the engine does not start start and run in open-loop, it's most likely the ECU.

At this time....who do you think is going to make it home first...the people you dropped off at the airport or the van?

Best of Luck.

[skeeters_keeper]

Joe, thats why I thought. I also thought they should have an external ECM of some sort so that they could run the engine w/o the car's computer hooked up at all, to try to isolate problems... who knows though, it is ford.
Royce, the guy at the first shop (not the dealership) replaced the ICM, so i guess he knew about that problem too. Since its not our van unfortunately i'm not real familiar with it, but apparently the ICM wasn't the problem, or at least not the whole problem.


We just talked to the folks at ford a little while ago, they said they have decided its the PCM, and they won't be able to get the part in until Thursday or friday, and its going to cost almost a grand! So now were sorta stuck with a rental car and a rental trailer until thurs or fri, because UHaul won't pick up the trailer in DC (they insist we have to return it here in lynchburg)...
Oh well, at least we sorta know whats going on now... so weird that the PCM would have gone and given up while we were sitting at the airport unloading bags!


The folks we dropped off are going to be in kenya for a month.... i hope the van is ready before then, because i'm supposed to pick them up with the same van when they get back!

[GenevaDirt]

Nate....all I can say is wow!....sounds like my kind of luck. At least it is not your money having to pay for things....at least I hope it's not. Good luck man.

[FB71]

Joe and Nate;

Fords do not operate that way. GM has a pin in ALDL that, when grounded, can force over-ride the PCM to operate in an open loop strategy. Ford PCMs will do this by themselves. However, a hard mechanical fault will prevent any PCM from operating the engine. The dealer is full of crap. What dealer is it? The are around Dulles was part of my territory when I was a Ford Service Training Instructor. Tell them you're gonna call Daryl Huff (or whoever is the current FSE) for a tech assist, since they can't figure it out.

OK, here's the skinny on a '96. It's a transition year; OBDII on a 5.8L. '95 was OBDI, '97 went to the 5.4L mod with OBDII. However, I don't any of this matters at the moment. Tell the techs to pull KOEO (Key On Engine Off) codes. He can do that with any vehicle that has battery power. Have him also check for FreezeFrame data and Pending DTCs. These should give him a start as to where to look for the issue. The TFI module is mounted in the inner fender, which you said has been replaced. However, the coil may be breaking down. You said it has spark, but how strong? Ask the tech to run a Cranking Data display on the ignition system. He should be able to do that with and IDS, WDS, or an old skool SBDS (Ford factory diagnostic tools).

In any case, let me know what dealer it's at, and I'll make a few calls to see if I can you any help.

[FB71]

oh, and by the way, Ford PCMs RARELY go bad. It virtually takes an act of god to disable one. They also do not drop their programming, like the old GMs used to. I did some work for the FBI at Quantico and Aberdeen Proving Grounds, thru Ford, to help them evaluate EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse) tolerability. It took a suprizing amount of energy to disable one. My two thoughts on this are the EEC relay, or a bad PCM ground.

[Pu241]

Whoa!!!!!!
Nothing I can add after what FB71 said!

So Jim, if I find myself in my GMC 6.2L diesel box truck and I'm unlucky enough to be caught in the EMP from a weapon detonation.
Should I have a spare PCM?
Will my Alt regulator also get smoked?
Don't think my '81 VW diesl has a PCM!
Got spare ECU's, Alt, and Distributors for my Festies so should be good there!

[FB71]

You're correct, your VeeDub does not have a PCM, stricktly hydromechanical. However, you'll probably loose all of your lighting, if the pulse is strong enough.

[jglutz]

Jim...the ALDL is a handy port...allows any PC in terminal mode to access the ECU.

Also....in the van...how does the PCM monitor combustion air flow? VAF, MAF, MAP? Reason I ask....if the PCM sees low air flow...open duct....the PCM will see low air flow and cut back on the FI duty cycle starving the engine for fuel.

[FestYboy]

the 6.2, if mech injected, will continue to run no matter what, as long as there's fuel comming from the transfer pump. EMP won't affect it due to their normaly short duration (the EMP may affect the transfer pump for a second or 2, but there should be enough fuel in the filter and lines leading to the injector pump to keep it from dieing).

[FB71]

96 should be MAF. During cranking data display, the tech can watch the MAF voltage, to see if it goes over 1.00v, average is 1.10 to 1.20v. Should be 1.40 to 1.50v at idle.

There's an easy check to see if the MAF is at fault... unplug it.

With it unplugged, the PCM will default to FMEM (Failure Mode Effects Management), ignoring to MAF signal, and revert back to speed-density calculation for fuel trim.

Also, Ford uses a rather narow PWM band for fuel trim, so it can't completely starve or flood the engine, before it reaches its lean or rich adjustment limits.

[skeeters_keeper]

Thanks Jim, thats some interesting info... Some of what they said didn't quite make sense to me at the time, but I'm not real familiar with all this stuff! Now i see that some of my suspicions were confirmed.
The dealer, and the guy we've been dealing with there, is:
Koons Ford
46869 Harry Byrd Hwy, Sterling, VA, 20164
Jason Rodriguez (service manager)
(703) 430-1375

I had my dad read your posts, not sure if he's going to make a call in the AM or not, but if you really think their either trying to get something over on us or just making an incorrect diagnosis if there's anything you could do about it it would be much appreciated!

geneva, our church will be paying for the repairs, but I hate to see our church spending all that $ on their van, we don't have a real big church and there are other things that need attention too!

[FB71]

Koons is usually pretty reputable. It may have been a service advisor covering for not having gotten to it yet. Let me know if you need any help.

[skeeters_keeper]

I saw it in the garage, so someone was looking at it i presume, but you may be right.

For now i guess we just wait and see, i hope its done soon, i forgot the manual for the Dynasty i'm doing a head job on in the van... easier to look up torque #'s in a manual than try to find them online!