Hho/hfe

[CharlieZ]

Actually, I would think any ionic material dissolved in water would help with electron transfer, which is the key to electrolyzing water.
So yes, NaHCO3 and Na2CO3 should work, so should NaCl and HCl.
I suspect it only makes a difference in the amount used to promote electrolysis.
HCl and NaCl are easily ionized and dissolve easy in water, where as NaHCO3 and NaCO3 probably do not dissolve as readily, but you don't really need a lot of it so I don't really think it makes much difference.
I'm a chemist, but this is better answered by an electro-chemist!

Man, you just cracked my commode!


Thanks for the info though. I'm gonna look it all up.

[Pu241]

^^^^:p
Uh, sorry!
You were going to have to switch to a low flow model anyway!

Note to self: use small words and do not use chemical nomenclature.

[skeeters_keeper]

Note to self: use small words and do not use chemical nomenclature.

I think you already slipped up! Can't even go a full sentence without using a word half the folks on the board don't know, can you?


At least its not like some of the ricer boards I've been unfortunate enough to stumble across... they would probably ban you for saying something intelligent.

[CharlieZ]

Pu241. Keep it up. We can't reach HIGH goals with LOW standards!

[Pu241]

Thanks guy's but really this just standard wet chemistry.
Nothing very novel or "intelligent" about it.
Would think this stuff can be found in a Gen. Chem text.
What I would really like, is to talk to a Electro-Chemist they could really be of help with this kind of stuff.
I probably can map out the half reactions for the cell, but I don't really have a feel for the intricacies of the chemistry.
Electro-Chemists are a rare breed, not too many of them around.
And after Pons and Fleischman, they kind of shy away from the public

[yblock]

HI GUY'S,
here's an update. ran the week at 300 mv on the EFIE. an gained another 2 mpg for a total of +5 mpg. IT'S an improvement but not anywhere near what I wanted. alot of owners claim they get 50mpg without any mods. I can get 42mpg without any mods but that's about it. an I drive like there's a egg underfoot an never exceed 60 mph. I have changed the plate spacing to 1/16th an turned the EFIE up to 375mv an changed the water so I"ll still be around 17amps. filled up an ready for another week of testing.

[FB71]

keep the data coming!!!

[Icedawg]

OK so I used to be an electrochemist, but not a battery chemist which may be closer to what we need here.
The salt has to be added to make the water conductive. But the salt can also affect the pH, for example NaCl mentioned above will be near neutral pH, while HCl will be quite acidic. On a weight basis sodium carbonate is a lot more conductive than sodium bicarbonate. It is also a lot more basic, which might give you some problems with lifetime of the components. Sodium bicarbonate gives a very mild pH, which will be less corrosive. You should get the same affect from bicarb as you do from carb, just by adding somewhat more than twice as much more bicarb. (The conductivity formula is nonlinear because of the double charge on the carbonate.)

But I am not sure increasing conductivity will help you, given the results you shared. I have been suspicious of this hydrogen generating idea because it seems to be a perpetual motion machine concept. But I think the experiment you have done with 3 vs 17 amp draws has nailed down why it can work and truly add efficiency, because it suggests there is around 3 amps of wasted energy. The alternator draws energy to run the car and recharge the battery. If it draws excess energy over those two roles then that is wasted as heat, and as useless electrolysis products in the battery (hydrogen actually). Your electrolysis cell is capturing that excess and turning it back into fuel. It may help further if adding hydrogen to the air/gas mixture improves burn efficiency, but I do not know about that. When you added more current draw you did not get more gain, because you had already tapped off the excess energy that was being wasted.

If adding hydrogen to the fuel mix does increase burn efficiency for gas, then there will still be a limit to how much you can gain. You are burning gas to make the hydrogen, which has its own thermodynamic losses and inefficiency, and those are subtracted from any gains made by burning better in the presence of hydrogen.

At least that's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it for now.

So who here knows about combustion and whether hydrogen can improve burn efficiency? And who here knows about alternators and how much energy they waste in normal operation? (Obviously the voltage regulator is meant to keep that waste to a minimum,but it is still there.)

[CharlieZ]

I stumbled on this "To create Brown’s Gas in an automobile, we have to use our DC power supply of the battery and alternator. But since an efficient power supply requires DC pulses, a special power supply design is required. (Or use the AC from the alternator.)"

Is he saying the DC to the *electrolyzer* is being pulsed? If so, at what frequency?
He is controlling pulses with a microprocessor.

Here's the link: http://helveyconsulting.com/OBGen.htm
There's other interesting stuff to read.

[yblock]

do a little research on stan meyer. he was using the ac from the alternator an an ac motor to create 3 phase power to run his hydrogen cell. I believe you can run on straight hydrogen. just like an lp gas conversion does. watch the new T.BOONE PICKENS commercials an you will see the back of a hydrogen car. but the hydrogen is compressed in a tank. not made on demand. where i work we have backup generators that use ford 460 v8's that run great on natural gas or propane if necessary.

[Pu241]

I had hope we had a good cross section of the sciences here!

You should get the same affect from bicarb as you do from carb, just by adding somewhat more than twice as much more bicarb. (The conductivity formula is nonlinear because of the double charge on the carbonate.)

OK, I don't remember all the details but I think your right about the conductivity being non-linear.
But is that because of the carbonate -2 charge or because you have 2x the Na+ ions around too!
Guess I need to dig those textbooks out!

The alternator is a on demand type device.
When your battery is low, from starting, excessive cranking, lights left on, ....
It will feed high current into the battery (some times more than the 30-35 AMP main fuses can take) when the battery approaches full charge the alternator reduces the current into the electrical system.
I don't think there's 3AMPs of wasted electrical generation, which would load the engine and reduce efficiency.
Perhaps FB71 can better explain the load dependent field excitation and details of the alternators functioning.
I still want to see yblock continue his work!
If it is possible to squeeze and extra 3-5 mpg out of this I'd be happy.
I drive about 40K miles a year and probably average 45 mpg.
I probably need to actually run the numbers from the beginning on the new car.
But Blue (230,000 miles) ran high 40's pretty easily, and with some effort 52-53 MPG, and with a lot of effort I did hit 56 mpg.
But Blue had lowering springs in the front and I suspect that makes a big difference.
Because the new car has 80K miles on it and I have to work to reach 46-48 MPG (@55MPH, coast when possible, etc.).

[Pu241]

I believe you can run on straight hydrogen.

Yes, you can but your never going to have the energy on board a vehical to generate the volume of hydrogen necessary to fuel a IC engine.
If you had that kind of energy density and mobility you'd power an electric motor directly.
What you are seeing, I hope, is enhanced combustion from feeding the electrolytic products into the air intake.

[quaddawg]

I am siding with Icedawg on this one.. recaptured inefficient draw from the alternator. I think there might be SOME credance to the enhanced combustion efficiency also, but I think yblocks data proves that it is not the quantity of hydrogen, since the higher yield cell did NOT improve gas mileage...

I am VERY VERY wary of this Brown's gas fad... bootstrap schemes are never "real" but there does seem to be SOME effect at work here, whether it is enhanced combustion or regained load inefficiency..

grain of salt needed... literally...

Hmmmm, maybe I had better hook up my perpetual motion machine again!!!

[yblock]

I realize I can't produce enough gas to totally power the car. an before quiting I will try different catalyst. I also have room to add more plate's to make more gas. at the same amperage draw. I enjoy the challenge an the modest gain. but I was really wanting to see a 25% increase in mpg
I stay away from the salt it produce's chlorine gas also.
it would cost 250.00 but I could go to my local welding supply an get a tank of hydrogen. that would be cool to play with.

[Burnrate]

If a larger quantity of the gas is added to the intake, would you not need to move the timing closer to TDC to see further efficiency gains? Otherwise you would be just running rich and sending combustion products to the cat. Maybe the Cat should have a temp sensor on it to help gauge what is happening. Also moving closer to TDC allows the engine to work easier (less heat) and be more efficient (more of the stroke is used for power). Is my logic flawed?