has anyone used Ethanol in there asfires w/fuel injection?

[Smoore]

Thinking of making some Ethanol to run some stuff on the farm.
wondering if the asfire can take it.
I read gas motors can run up to 24% mix
current gas is between 8 to 10%

[gdawgs]

You are making your own ethanol??

I run 10% ethanol in all my vehicles all the time and have been for 15 years or more. It works well. In Minnesota, all gas is 10% ethanol blended, so you have to use it there. You can buy non ethanol, but you can only put it in "antique" cars and small engines/boat motors, etc.

I'm not sure how strong you can mix it before you'll start having problems. They sell a lot of E85(85% ethanol) around here, but you can only use that if your vehicle is designed to run it. Festivas/Aspires are too old and can't run this. I'd use it if I had a vehicle that would run it. It's only $1.49/gallon. You do lose some mileage, but the difference in price more than makes up for it.

[Santos]

if the car was tuned correctly to run it and took advantage of it's higher compression you would actually get an increase in mileage 8)

[gdawgs]

Mmm, I don't believe so. Alcohol contains less energy per unit volume than gasoline, so it's going to be pretty tough to get more mileage out of it.

[ericsmith32]

I can tell you if you try to run E85 in your car it will dis-own you until you till you get it all cleaned out. Tried it in my 91 and it didn't run right for at least a couple months, had use alot of seafoam and techron to correct the problem. If you want to know what it ran like, shuf off your engine going 80 mph immediately restart it with the gas pedal to the floor, not a good feeling.

[gdawgs]

Yeah, I believe you need a 2002 or newer(or somewhere around that year) And even then, not all new cars will run it.

[Whittey]

Energy content of gasoline is about 18500 btu/lb. Energy content of ethanol is 13160 btu/lb. Stoichiometric ratio of gasoline is 14.7:1 and for ethanol is 9:1. Gasoline weighs roughly 6.5lbs/gallon. Ethanol weighs 6.59lbs.

So for every pound of air your engine breathes, burning gasoline will cause 1258.5 BTU to be available to convert to rotational energy. Burning ethanol will cause 1462.2 BTU to be available. This is why engines running on ethanol put out more power. However, to make that 1258 BTU, you will need to burn 1.09oz of gasoline. To make that 1462 BTU. you'll need to burn 1.78oz of Ethanol.

Lets see how this works out with a specific amount of energy. To make 5000 BTU, you will need to burn 5.32 fl oz of gasoline. To make that same 5000 BTU with Ethanol, you will need to burn 7.38 fl oz of Ethanol.

So realistically, running ethanol will get you about 16% more power, but you'll lose 39% of your fuel economy. You'll need 7.07 fl oz of E85 for 5000 BTU and you'll get 1431.6 BTU per pound of air. So running E85 will get you 14% more power, while losing 33% fuel economy.

The kicker is that gasoline is cheaply available at much lower octanes than Ethanol. Gasoline comes in 87-94 octane ((R+M)/2) wherein ethanol is rated at 113. Taking advantage of the increase in octane will make more power to close up that ecoomy gap, but it's not going to make it go away.


-=Whittey=-

[oxbrain]

Ethanol costs more than gasoline, and it delivers less power per gallon. It does burn a lot cleaner though, and since it has a higher octane it means turbos love it.

I've wanted to get a car running on either E85 or 100% ethanol. The fuel bill would be 50-70% more, but the clean burn would mean less engine wear.

[gdawgs]

Ethanol costs more than gasoline, and it delivers less power per gallon. It does burn a lot cleaner though, and since it has a higher octane it means turbos love it.

I've wanted to get a car running on either E85 or 100% ethanol. The fuel bill would be 50-70% more, but the clean burn would mean less engine wear.

It really costs that much more where you live??

I believe the actual cost to produce ethanol may be higher than gas, but around here Ethanol is highly subsidized, so the cost to consumers is significantly less. Gas is currently $2.09/gal here, and E85 like I mentioned before is $1.49/gal.

[HappyMom]

So running E85 will get you 14% more power, while losing 33% fuel economy.

What if you don't "need" more power?

If you're cruising down the highway at 60 MPH in 5th gear, the car's goign to need the same amount of power to move forward, whether you measure it in HP or BTU/hr). Is gas still more fuel efficient?

[gdawgs]

Yes, gas will provide better mileage (kilometerage for you :lol: )

[FB71]

a little Ethanol info for everyone...



MN Station Marked E85 70 Cents Below Unleaded



- by Dick Hagen of The Land Online

When Honzays, the Olivia, Minnesota-based Farmers Co-op Oil Company service station, posted their E85 gasoline prices 70 cents lower than regular gasoline, E85 sales took off.

This 70-cent advantage happened in mid-September when Chippewa Valley Ethanol Company (CVEC) in Benson decided it would offer E85 to all stations in its ethanol distribution network 70 cents below the price of regular gas, whatever the price of regular gas.

"We simply wanted to make a statement to the rest of the ethanol industry that we felt it important to demonstrate our commitment to ethanol and the renewable fuels industry," said Bill Lee, CVEC general manager. Sales of E85 have virtually tripled throughout the 50-station distribution network of this co-op and Lee indicated they would stay with this program as long as the arithmetic worked.

"We already had several customers with flexible-fuel vehicles who routinely were filling up on E85 when the price advantage was only 20 cents. But that 70-cent price differential definitely got a few more customers, regardless of their vehicle, to start topping off their tank with some E85," said Mike Bruns, manager of Honzays.

Gasoline station employees cannot recommend E85 fuel unless the vehicle is a flexible-fuel vehicle meaning it was factory designed to burn any fuel from regular gasoline on up to E85, which is 85-percent ethanol and 15-percent regular gasoline. However, keep in mind that since 1995 all gasoline sold in Minnesota has contained 10-percent ethanol. Minnesota is still the only state in the nation with a 10-percent ethanol mandate.

Why the buzz on E85 sales in Minnesota? Minnesota leads all states in E85 sales simply because Minnesota has more E85 outlets, almost 200, than any other state. The Energy Division of the Minnesota Department of Commerce estimates 941,000 gallons of E85 were sold in August. Total 2005 sales of E85 by September 1 were 4.3 million gallons in Minnesota. E85 sales for all of 2004 totaled 2.6 million gallons.

Even auto dealers are beginning to use E85 in their marketing of new automobiles. Senator Mark Dayton has proposed that all new cars made in America be flexible-fuel vehicles. Brazil auto manufacturers produce only flex-fuel autos. Their alcohol fuels are made from sugar cane.

Lee supports Dayton's proposal suggesting it's a matter of national security as well as a vital assist to American agriculture and the entire ethanol industry. "It shouldn't be a question of when does the auto industry adopt FFV manufacturing. It should just be there.”

"Ethanol-blended fuels and flexible-fuel automobiles are a convenient means for the auto industry to capture their CAFÉ (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) credits which includes both fuel efficiency plus environmental issues of reduced carbon emissions and cleaner air," he said.

As might be expected, the price advantage for E85 is kicking up interest in conversion kits that enable a non-flex fuel auto to work with E85. At this stage, both Detroit and the National Corn Growers Association urge caution since conversions void the auto manufacturer's warranty.

Editors note: The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition notes that federal law prohibits “tampering” with emission control equipment on a motor vehicle and converting a non FFV to operate on E85, requires the use of an EPA certified system.”

Meanwhile, CVEC is running at maximum capacity, which currently is 125,000 gallons of ethanol per day plus 350 tons of distillers dried grain soluble. "The market is strong. We're producing as much as we can. The world economy is so strong that even though we have major concerns about energy costs, especially home heating and diesel and gasoline costs, this energy market will likely stay strong, even with crude oil dropping slightly," Lee said.

They distribute E85 directly to the 50 plus stations mostly within a 50-mile radius of Benson. Lee said they get requests for delivery into Twin Cities markets and other locations but freight costs are the determining factor. Plus by delivering direct, they bypass delivery to terminals where the fuel would then be blended into E85.

[Andrew]

I was about to say I wonder if there's a way to convert to a flexible fuel thing... but then i realized i've never seen E85 in my area, ever.

I'd be happy if I could use that AvGas racing fuel crap but that's not helping the enviornment any, just my wallet.

[gdawgs]

Yep, you have to live near where it's manufactured. It's pretty easy to find around here.

My brother works with a guy who has a "Greasel". Basically you take a diesel vehicle, then buy a conversion kit(I'm not sure all what's involved). I know you need two tanks one for diesel fuel and one for the grease. You basically go around to restaurants and collect their used cooking oil. You filter it, then put it in your grease tank. You need to start the engine and warm it up on the diesel, then when it's hot, you switch over to the grease and drive for free! This guy has a few restaurants that he goes to and never has a shortage of fuel. Pretty cool. Unfortunately you can't do it with a Festiva.

http://www.greasel.com/

[Whittey]

So running E85 will get you 14% more power, while losing 33% fuel economy.

What if you don't "need" more power?

If you're cruising down the highway at 60 MPH in 5th gear, the car's goign to need the same amount of power to move forward, whether you measure it in HP or BTU/hr). Is gas still more fuel efficient?

That was the point of:

Lets see how this works out with a specific amount of energy. To make 5000 BTU, you will need to burn 5.32 fl oz of gasoline. To make that same 5000 BTU with Ethanol, you will need to burn 7.38 fl oz of Ethanol.

For the same exact amount of energy, you're using 38% more fuel (by weight).


-=Whittey=-