Ignition timing issue

[95Compact]

Hey guys, my '88 carby is back on the pad after blowing the head gasket in my turbo 318ti... while the parts are on the way, I'd like to solve a problem I've been having for a long time with the Festy...

Starts and runs smoothly, but lacks power big time (as in, its hard to get out of 2nd gear and still accelerate at all).

Used the timing light on it today and found it to be way off the scale (vac advance plugged), the mark was showing about 25 degrees to the rear (counterclockwise from the pass side) AWAY FROM the timing scale. Plugging in the vac advance made it further away by about 6-8 degrees, as would be expected.

I've always had to have the disto rotated all the way back (clockwise from the driver's side). If it isn't, the car won't even start. While using the timing light today, I rotated the disto slowly towards the front (towards the center of its adjustment range) and as the engine slowed down and eventually died, the timing mark on the crank pulley DID move towards the timing markers on the case.

I think that I verified that the valve timing and timing belt are correctly aligned - (used a wooden rod to rptate the crank to TDC of cyl#1 and the cam mark was right on its TDC mark as well)

Anyone know where to go next? I don't understand why the timing has to be so far advanced to get it to run. It seems as if I had another 15-20 degrees of adjustment range on the disto, all could be well...even thought the timing light would then show it to be EVEN further away from the scale...

Thanks and cheers!

[FestYboy]

i'd say you're still 2 teeth off on the cam gear. recheck the cam timing and make sure the cam gear isn't damaged where it mounts to the cam. also make sure the dizzy isn't in backward and that the rotor is in it's proper position (it can mount in 3 positions).

another thing to look at is your cat, but do the above first and if you can, post pix.

remember: the cam gear hash marks are at 12 and 3 o'clock and the notch on the crank gear is at 12

[95Compact]

Thanks Festyboy, I will double check the valve timing... it has skipped a few teeth before on me!

Hey, there is a little metal tab sticking out at around 12 o'clock, right above the crank pulley... is that the marker for the valve timing? (I can't find my Festy manual since i moved)

Also, its interesting that you mentioned the disto rotor, because its almost seemed like I had the plug wires installed 90 degrees off... but there is a '1' marked on the cap's #1 cyl plug, so I'm pretty sure I have that right...

I'll check the valve timing again and report back, thanks again!

[FestYboy]

yeah the little tab is your crank marker, line it up with the notch on the crank gear.

as for the rotor, you can have it in one of 3 positions, but the CAP can't be rotated. an just because you mentioned it, the cap should read (from the 10 o'clock position, counter-clockwise) 1-3-4-2

[georgeb]

On my '93 the tab sticking out should be at 12 o'clock. It has a one-way only crank hub. Don't know about other years.

[Movin]

right on , finding the index. I do have a question, are the gears, cams and distributors all the same on the B3 ? In other words if at TDC with cam gear aligned and distributor properly installed will the rotor always point in the same direction? I have got rebuilt distributors before that could not be timed unless the mount bolt was pulled out. Exchanged it and all was well, there must be something pretty close for a mix up like that. This sounds kind of similar but maybe not, it seems to be on the wrong side of TDC. Whatever, doing what you are doing will find your problem.

[95Compact]

FestYboy "yeah the little tab is your crank marker, line it up with the notch on the crank gear."

FestYboy, thanks again for the info - I checked the disto, and the rotor is mounted correctly - I haven't checked the valve timing yet (too dark here)...

As a side note, when I checked the ignition timing earlier today, the light showed the crank notch pretty much exactly at the same little tab...

[95Compact]

BTW, I was born in Lebanon Not far from you...

Cheers!

[FestYboy]

FestYboy "yeah the little tab is your crank marker, line it up with the notch on the crank gear."

FestYboy, thanks again for the info - I checked the disto, and the rotor is mounted correctly - I haven't checked the valve timing yet (too dark here)...

As a side note, when I checked the ignition timing earlier today, the light showed the crank notch pretty much exactly at the same little tab...

the crank pulley notches are NOT the same as the crank gear notch, nore are the locations the same for timing. as for the dizzy, you need to REMOVE it to verify that you don't have it 180* out. if it is, that would explain why your timing is very out. doing some simple math, if the rotor can be put in 3 positions, they are 120* out respectively. now if the dizzy is 180* out then the rotor is 30* away from being correct (180 - .5x120). which makes it very close to what your timing light is telling you the timing is out! NOTE: this is only aplicable if your cam timing is spot on.

[95Compact]

Wow, ok, I"ll check all those in the morning... I've never removed the dizzy in the 4yrs I've owned it, but then again, its always been this way, so...

Thanks for all the info!

[91mcnasty]

Festyboy your a smart S.O.B!!!!!

[95Compact]

the crank pulley notches are NOT the same as the crank gear notch, nore are the locations the same for timing. as for the dizzy, you need to REMOVE it to verify that you don't have it 180* out. if it is, that would explain why your timing is very out. doing some simple math, if the rotor can be put in 3 positions, they are 120* out respectively. now if the dizzy is 180* out then the rotor is 30* away from being correct (180 - .5x120). which makes it very close to what your timing light is telling you the timing is out! NOTE: this is only aplicable if your cam timing is spot on.

Ok, so let me get this straight...

For the valve timing, there is a notch or mark on the timing belt 'gear' - it has to be in the 12 o'clock position at TDC and the camshaft 'gear' has to have it's scribed line at 3 o'clock and (white mark at 12 o'clock), right?

The crank pulley mark is only used to check ignition timing against the scale on the case, right?

How do I know if the distributor is out 180 degrees when I remove it?

[FestYboy]

Festyboy your a smart S.O.B!!!!!

i've been called worse...

Ok, so let me get this straight...

For the valve timing, there is a notch or mark on the timing belt 'gear' - it has to be in the 12 o'clock position at TDC and the camshaft 'gear' has to have it's scribed line at 3 o'clock and (white mark at 12 o'clock), right?

The crank pulley mark is only used to check ignition timing against the scale on the case, right?

How do I know if the distributor is out 180 degrees when I remove it?

Compact, there are 2 hash marks on the cam gear (neither will have a color), one must be at 12 AND the other must be at 3 with the crank gear notch at 12 (the crank notch is behind the timing belt and the pointer for that is cast into the oil pump right below the water pump). DO NOT pay any attention to the marks on the crank accessory belt pulley, they are for ignition timing only, that's what is getting you confused.

you will only know if the dizzy is 180* out if the marks above are in the right position and the rotor is 180* from wire number 1 on the cap (though, again, the rotor can be in 1 of 3 positions so, so that 180* out position may only look like 30- 60*)

[95Compact]

Ok, time for some pics! I think I have everything right, so lets see:

Here is the cam 'gear' position with the crank 'gear' positioned at TDC:

[95Compact]

Here is a pic of the crank timing 'gear', tough you can't see that mark in the pic, I remember where it is now and snapped a pic for others' reference - it is aligned with the pointer in the case: