changed over to pure gas and synthetic oil

[Darlo]

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/factors.shtml

And.....

I just found this awesome study that includes a few different mixtures of gas and ethanol and the average decrease in mpg was "1.5% lower mileage with E10, 2.2% lower mileage with E20, 5.1% lower mileage with E30". Read it in the link below!

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf

Basically, Ethanol burns 60% as efficiently as gasoline, and since gas with 10% ethanol is 90% pure gas, we only have 10% of the volume being 60% efficient. So if 90% is at 100% efficiency, and 10% is at 60% efficiency, we have a total of 96% efficiency compared to 100% pure gas.

Or........

0.9*1.0 + 0.1*.6 = .9 + .06 = .96 = 96%

[litesong]

Using 10% ethanol gas only really has the "potential" to decrease your fuel economy by 4%.

You repeat the ethanol industry's 2-4% ethanol loss of mpg, as you repeat the ethanol industry's 'report' on mpg loss.

You don't consider that actual ethanol engines use much higher compression ratios than gasoline engines to get the most efficiency out of ethanol. Engines designed to get the most efficiency out of gasoline don't have the high compression ratios of ethanol engines. Thus, using ethanol in gasoline engines isn't getting the most efficiency out of ethanol, over & above the btu loss of ethanol compared to gasoline.

With accurate years-long data of 10% ethanol blend use in our 3 cars, & now, 8 months of 100% pure(ethanol-free) gasoline use, have shown an increase of 8%(now up to 8.3%), 7-8% & 5% in our 3 cars.

[navdoc101]

Very interesing! Please keep us informed. Still not sure if its worth the almost 1.00/gal. more for pure-gas.

[Movin]

? I suppose mileage could be a factor but if the fuel costs more it really doesn't pencil.
The reason I am proponent is the ethanol itself causes corrosion to metals present in
the fuel system, dries some gaskets and seals, ages hoses...this all costs more money
and frustration in the long run. Cars that are not DD suffer the most.

[litesong]

Very interesing! Please keep us informed. Still not sure if its worth the almost 1.00/gal. more for pure-gas.

Seems that 100% gasoline in Tampa area are only offered in high octane levels with their corresponding high prices. Florida has a tendency for a lack of 87 octane fuel in 100% gasoline. Further afield, Bradenton has a 100% gasoline station with 87 octane that should be at a lower cost. Bradenton may not be close enough to you, to be economic.

[loknlode]

a buck a gal more??????? :eeeeeek:

and I thought the 40c a gal dif here was bad - I'll stop complaining now.

just a ? - wouldn't adding some octane booster or ______ to reg. gas be as good as puregas? I mean if you end up paying 10-20 bucks more for a tank of gas and could ad a $5 can of addative you'd be better off maybe?

[Darlo]

You repeat the ethanol industry's 2-4% ethanol loss of mpg, as you repeat the ethanol industry's 'report' on mpg loss.

You don't consider that actual ethanol engines use much higher compression ratios than gasoline engines to get the most efficiency out of ethanol. Engines designed to get the most efficiency out of gasoline don't have the high compression ratios of ethanol engines. Thus, using ethanol in gasoline engines isn't getting the most efficiency out of ethanol, over & above the btu loss of ethanol compared to gasoline.

With accurate years-long data of 10% ethanol blend use in our 3 cars, & now, 8 months of 100% pure(ethanol-free) gasoline use, have shown an increase of 8%(now up to 8.3%), 7-8% & 5% in our 3 cars.

DID ANYONE CLICK THIS LINK? If not, do so. It is obvious from Litesong's post that he did not.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf

[Pu241]

DID ANYONE CLICK THIS LINK? If not, do so. It is obvious from Litesong's post that he did not.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...yStudy_001.pdf

You can't really expect him to read something that doesn't reinforce his mania!
Seems to be a decently run test.
I might have to dive back into my logs and see what my data actually tells me.
Would rather run trials now on 10%ETOH vs real gasoline as I'm not sure my logs from 5-10 yrs ago delineate ethanol vs real gasoline.

[Movin]

I just clicked and read it. About what one would expect. They did not choose cars
with similar o2 construction so the ability of the computer to run as lean as possible
with different fuels is not shown

The cars use different logic for mapping ignition timing and different input logic
from the knock sensor. The knock sensor only retards for poor fuels on some, and
other manufacturers have the knock sensor test the octane of the fuel and adjust the
timing up to the fuels ability to resist knocking.

With so many variables it will be hard to predict the exact outcome for each kind of car.
The Toyota o2 sensor was not able to cope with the extra o2 present with hybrid fuel
in mileage experiments.

With today's engines and technology we should have engines and computer systems
made just for CNG or/and LPG and be burning these fuels at much less cost per mile
and without the destructiveness of the alcohols and hydrogen.

[Darlo]

I just clicked and read it. About what one would expect. They did not choose cars
with similar o2 construction so the ability of the computer to run as lean as possible
with different fuels is not shown

The cars use different logic for mapping ignition timing and different input logic
from the knock sensor. The knock sensor only retards for poor fuels on some, and
other manufacturers have the knock sensor test the octane of the fuel and adjust the
timing up to the fuels ability to resist knocking.

With so many variables it will be hard to predict the exact outcome for each kind of car.
The Toyota o2 sensor was not able to cope with the extra o2 present with hybrid fuel
in mileage experiments.

With today's engines and technology we should have engines and computer systems
made just for CNG or/and LPG and be burning these fuels at much less cost per mile
and without the destructiveness of the alcohols and hydrogen.

It would be great to do this study with a larger sample of cars for sure. Cool stuff though.......If anyone wants to help me gather data, I would gladly run the statistics for you. It would be cool to come up with a "how much does ethanol effect the gas mileage of a festiva" study. I would gladly admit I was wrong if we found evidence showing it to be so. In fact, I would be happy to say I was wrong, lol.......I love stats!

[DriverOne]

It would be great to do this study with a larger sample of cars for sure. Cool stuff though.......If anyone wants to help me gather data, I would gladly run the statistics for you. It would be cool to come up with a "how much does ethanol effect the gas mileage of a festiva" study. I would gladly admit I was wrong if we found evidence showing it to be so. In fact, I would be happy to say I was wrong, lol.......I love stats!

There are quite a few variables within the "Festiva", though. EFI, carb, B3, then modified cars with B6 (Gen 1 & 2, SOHC & DOHC, turbo), B8, BP, auto or manual trans, a multitude of tire sizes... That's quite a bit to crunch. Would you limit your info to the most produced of cars, the EFI 5-speed, or would you go for all factors to find a premium setup?

[navdoc101]

a buck a gal more??????? :eeeeeek:

and I thought the 40c a gal dif here was bad - I'll stop complaining now.

just a ? - wouldn't adding some octane booster or ______ to reg. gas be as good as puregas? I mean if you end up paying 10-20 bucks more for a tank of gas and could ad a $5 can of addative you'd be better off maybe?

Yep, E10 is $3.27/gal; pure gas is $4.49/gal. Only one Citgo in Tampa sells non ethanol gas. Checked it out the other day. Way too much cash. The one station in Tampa is about 4 miles away, Bradenton is around 40 miles from me. St.Pete./ Clearwater is around 20 miles. I go to St.Pete./ Clearwater area more often to gun shops & shows.

[litesong]

DID ANYONE CLICK THIS LINK? If not, do so. It is obvious from Litesong's post that he did not.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...yStudy_001.pdf

Saw the link well before I ever saw your post. Do you believe the Big Bad Wolf, too?

Repeating:
With accurate years-long data of 10% ethanol blend use in our 3 cars, & now, 8 months of 100% pure(ethanol-free) gasoline use, have shown an increase of 8%(now up to 8.3%), 7-8% & 5% in our 3 cars.

[Darlo]

There are quite a few variables within the "Festiva", though. EFI, carb, B3, then modified cars with B6 (Gen 1 & 2, SOHC & DOHC, turbo), B8, BP, auto or manual trans, a multitude of tire sizes... That's quite a bit to crunch. Would you limit your info to the most produced of cars, the EFI 5-speed, or would you go for all factors to find a premium setup?

I would take all the numbers from all of the cars, make a database, and could pull anything out of it. I would need a lot of data points though to make it accurate, as the R^2 (r-squared) value would be low with only a few data points (this basically means that the variability in the data may not be explained by the variability in the sample variable).....LOL I sound like a dork! But it is true.....

Would need about 20 data points (fill ups) from each festiva, and at least 10 Festivas in each group (auto carb, manual injected, 1.3, 1.6, etc)

Would be fun though!

[DriverOne]

That could easily be obtained by fuelly, I'd say.