Switching to gasoline without ethanol

[bobstad]

Well, I decided to start buying fuel without ethanol. Reasoning the improved longevity of the motor is worth that; while imagining improvement in gas mileage, could even make my new habit about as affordable as before.

What I'm wondering about however, is the sort of society I'm going to find? I'm used to the least expensive place in town owned by people from India, who've come to like and respect me; out of all the cacophony of types, always in lines at their place for the cheap prices.

I may find abandoning that, hard to do: Particularly depending upon what sort of folks I find I'm running into, buying the highest quality fuel all the time.

I noticed the tanker filling their fuel tanks, is from the town known as the Aryan nations stronghold in the county about ten miles north of here; which may or may not mean a whole lot, since also a community for decades promoting themselves to outsiders which has grown significantly.

So, doubtless the neoNazi or whatever type contingency there is a minority; if where riding the bus I've noticed my high-top Chuck Taylor canvas basketball sneakers, define me as "white power" I was startled to find, an enthused youth pointed out. Yuck.

[rbrown]

Wish I could find it here.

[yousufwalton]

we got 2-3 stations in chattanooga that sell it , usualy on avg is 20cents more per same octane

[bravekozak]

They did a study on the Marketplace TV show (consumer awareness). They did not discuss the benefits of no ethanol. They just said that there was no difference between regular and super in terms of power or gas mileage because of the ECU compensations.

[blkfordsedan]

Bob, you're putting entirely too much thought into filling your car with gas. I have never had my social, political or ideological classification defined by the gas station I patronize. If that happens there, you may want to consider moving out here to the "heartland" of America.

[Movin]

The restrooms are cleaner..

[rbrown]

They did a study on the Marketplace TV show (consumer awareness). They did not discuss the benefits of no ethanol. They just said that there was no difference between regular and super in terms of power or gas mileage because of the ECU compensations.

Regular and Super different dealio.

I did my own study on no ethanol and the effect was immediate. I was able to get the plain stuff in Arkansas and my mileage instantly went up almost to where I was when my car was young.

And Bob is correct on the effects. It's not good.

[Bert]

They did a study on the Marketplace TV show (consumer awareness). They did not discuss the benefits of no ethanol. They just said that there was no difference between regular and super in terms of power or gas mileage because of the ECU compensations.

I too watched that show about 2 months ago. The reporters entirely failed to mention that the higher the octane rating the slower a fuel detonates. I guess with electronic fuel mixture and spark timing controls the age-old engine 'pinging' symptoms of pre-ignition are no longer the same scourge/curse of high compression engines. Marketplace also failed to mention that (in Ontario, Canada, anyway) all gasolines, with the single exception of Premium (92 octane), contain up to 10% ethanol. Only Premium gasoline contains no ethanol. Curiously, Ethanol generates about 25% fewer BTUs (British thermal units) than the equivalent volume of gasoline so overall engine power, or fuel economy (depending on how the engine computer deals with this) will be slightly reduced (about 2.5%) no matter what Marketplace claims. Ethanol is not as corrosive, or seal and gasket-dissolving as Methanol (wood alcohol) though. If fuel economy really is 'your bag' then switching to Premium will optimize that, but at the expense of your wallet. Around here Premium is about 10 cents a litre (40 cents/US gal) more expensive than Regular.
One benefit to using Ethanol fuel though is the elimination of having to add gas line antifreeze (methyl hydrate) to fuel during the winter when temperature and humidity extremes causes moisture condensation in the gas tank which freezes and clogs up gas lines and injectors and carburetors. Ethanol is hydroscopic (attracts and binds with water, and even dissolves ice)

My trusty old carbureted F150 will not start below -20C when filled with 5-10% Ethanol-mix fuel (in those situations a zap of QuikStart in the air breather works miracles though) but happily fires up in the worst cold with Premium. I'm told the biggest boon to small engine repair shops is people that use ethanol gas; it has a shelf life that is less than 6 months (ie don't leave gas in a lawnmower over the winter, or in the snowblower over the summer) and it wreaks havoc on seals and gaskets of older equipment. Unless small engine carbs are specifically tuned for ethanol they are also more difficult to start. My small engine Prof at the local college always said 'only use Premium' in small engines.

What I don't understand though, Bob, is why you of all people would be down on "Green" Ethanol fuel. It's made from re-newable resources (corn mostly) and it burns much cleaner (less harmful emissions) than gasoline. I'm waiting to hear we'll soon be forced to use 5-10% Canola or Corn oil in engines and transmissions.

As you can tell I have 'mixed feelings' about this stuff.

[rbrown]

I too watched that show about 2 months ago. The reporters entirely failed to mention that the higher the octane rating the slower a fuel detonates. I guess with electronic fuel mixture and spark timing controls the age-old engine 'pinging' symptoms of pre-ignition are no longer the same scourge/curse of high compression engines. Marketplace also failed to mention that (in Ontario, Canada, anyway) all gasolines, with the single exception of Premium (92 octane), contain up to 10% ethanol. Only Premium gasoline contains no ethanol. Curiously, Ethanol generates about 25% fewer BTUs (British thermal units) than the equivalent volume of gasoline so overall engine power, or fuel economy (depending on how the engine computer deals with this) will be slightly reduced (about 2.5%) no matter what Marketplace claims. Ethanol is not as corrosive, or seal and gasket-dissolving as Methanol (wood alcohol) though. If fuel economy really is 'your bag' then switching to Premium will optimize that, but at the expense of your wallet. Around here Premium is about 10 cents a litre (40 cents/US gal) more expensive than Regular.
One benefit to using Ethanol fuel though is the elimination of having to add gas line antifreeze (methyl hydrate) to fuel during the winter when temperature and humidity extremes causes moisture condensation in the gas tank which freezes and clogs up gas lines and injectors and carburetors. Ethanol is hydroscopic (attracts and binds with water, and even dissolves ice)

My trusty old carbureted F150 will not start below -20C when filled with 5-10% Ethanol-mix fuel (in those situations a zap of QuikStart in the air breather works miracles though) but happily fires up in the worst cold with Premium. I'm told the biggest boon to small engine repair shops is people that use ethanol gas; it has a shelf life that is less than 6 months (ie don't leave gas in a lawnmower over the winter, or in the snowblower over the summer) and it wreaks havoc on seals and gaskets of older equipment. Unless small engine carbs are specifically tuned for ethanol they are also more difficult to start. My small engine Prof at the local college always said 'only use Premium' in small engines.

What I don't understand though, Bob, is why you of all people would be down on "Green" Ethanol fuel. It's made from re-newable resources (corn mostly) and it burns much cleaner (less harmful emissions) than gasoline. I'm waiting to hear we'll soon be forced to use 5-10% Canola or Corn oil in engines and transmissions.

As you can tell I have 'mixed feelings' about this stuff.

Excellent post.

I would like to add though. "burns much cleaner than gasoline" is a debatable item (remember your example of BTU's). And do not discount the increased emissions to make Ethanol.

[Larry Hampton]

My own studies through multiple fillups on my 2003 Ford Sport Trac with the 4.0, my wife's 2000 Windstar with the 3.8 and my 1991 Ford Festiva with the 1.3 yielded similar results. The average was a 12.5% loss of mileage using E10 (up to 10% ethanol) vs 100% gasoline. E10 trends about $0.10/gallon cheaper here in Oklahoma so the break even point would be $0.375 cheaper on a $2.99 gallon of 100% fuel, or $2.62 for E10, which isn't happening around here.

When I go to Texas (usually the DFW area) I fill up prior to leaving Oklahoma and typically make it back without filling up in Texas. When I do have to get fuel, I try to get only enough to get me back to Oklahoma for a real fill.

Ethanol is more expensive to produce, your tax dollars at work, as well as it uses more power to produce. Probably the best alternative is CNG, but converting my Festy (legally) would be ten-fold the car's worth. I could convert it myself for a two-fold increase, have considered it, we have many fill stations here in the metro area. I've also considered a CNG only Crown Vic. I'd really like a bi-fuel F-series supercab shortbed 4x4.

[Movin]

Bert, very good write, and good follow ups as well. In the large group of people
who's cars I care for , there are some who watch their wallet and some who run
the numbers when fueling up. Our state used to switch to E10 only during the
winter. As soon as winter hit these folks would show up. There figures or seat
of the pants claims would be almost 10 percent loss. Later when our state did
the dirty to diesel fuel , besides horrible fuel mileage we had plugged filters
like crazy, it seems the bio oil based can break down and really make a mess.
I don't like scraping peanut butter concrete out of the bottom of a fuel tank.

As said 2 stroke oils do not blend properly and do not lubricate properly
leading to failures.

I strongly object that our government pushes this stuff on us to try out at
our considerable expense until it can be made to work.

[bobstad]

Well, I can add that buying ethanol free fuel in this area means buying Union 76; whose regular grade fuel I'm presuming is as ethanol free as their two higher octane choices. And, as far as buying "green" as long as capitalism calls the shots; I'm not about to shoot myself in the foot, for the benefit of the whole gamut of the rest of society. That's for "over-educated, under-intelligent liberals" not leftist-radicals.

Right now, I'm wondering what a hundred thousand miles of ethanol free fuel would've amounted to; the number of miles I've driven the Festiva with ethanol in the gas. At 180,000 miles, now wondering about overhauling the motor since there is blow-by, which if done should make the car reliable as long as I'm around; the idea of taking especial good care of a fresh engine, is on my mind. Not that I'll get around to a rebuild any time too soon; but, even getting what is left out of the current motor-will give me an idea of the advantages of ethanol free gasoline.

And, the guys from India I've been buying fuel from are certainly not anti-capitalist; though they seem to appreciate the degree of insanity created by offering fuel significantly less costly than anyplace else around here. While seeming to recognize I'm not as driven generally, by the same near blood lust attracting many of their customers for the cheap fuel savings. When on the road, I often use ARCO, or those chains which cater to long haul travelers and truckers with lower gas prices also open 24/7. Union 76 stations are nearly as common on the west coast.

[Bert]

I strongly object that our government pushes this stuff on us to try out at
our considerable expense until it can be made to work.

I didn't mention this but suddenly switching to Ethanol-blended fuel is somewhat of an 'upset' to a car's fuel delivery system. The solvent properties are higher and having to change fuel filters immediately after is a frequent complaint. Back in my university days my British Mini ran out of gas late one night. With great trepidation I poured my treasured quart flask of science-grade lab Ethanol (95%) into the tank to get further down the road. Car ran fine. Final stop on the way home I poured a can of BBq starter fluid in. Got home OK but had to drive erratically in order for the stuff to trickle down each and every intake runner of the manifold. Car wouldn't start at all the next morning and ultimately wound up having to rebuild the carb because it was so thoroughly gummed up.

[bobstad]

I didn't mention this but suddenly switching to Ethanol-blended fuel is somewhat of an 'upset' to a car's fuel delivery system. The solvent properties are higher and having to change fuel filters immediately after is a frequent complaint. Back in my university days my British Mini ran out of gas late one night. With great trepidation I poured my treasured quart flask of science-grade lab Ethanol (95%) into the tank to get further down the road. Car ran fine. Final stop on the way home I poured a can of BBq starter fluid in. Got home OK but had to drive erratically in order for the stuff to trickle down each and every intake runner of the manifold. Car wouldn't start at all the next morning and ultimately wound up having to rebuild the carb because it was so thoroughly gummed up.

Once when I ran out of gas close to my place, I ended up adding a gallon of kerosene I had thought was gasoline. The Festiva sure ran strange then! I had to keep the revs up high to keep the motor running; which sounded like some sort of formula one race car, getting the few blocks back to the apartment. The muffler had fallen off a few thousand miles before, completing the effect.

[stonemaster]

check out

http://pure-gas.org/