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  • "Black Boxes In Cars"

    From Associated Press as printed in several of today’s newspapers:

    WASHINGTON — Many motorists don't know it, but it's likely that every time they get behind the wheel, there's a snitch along for the ride.

    The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Friday proposed long-delayed regulations requiring auto manufacturers to include event-data recorders — better known as "black boxes" — in all new cars and light trucks beginning Sept. 1, 2014.

    The agency is behind the curve. Automakers have been quietly tucking the devices, which automatically record the actions of drivers and the responses of their vehicles in a continuous information loop, into most new vehicles for years.

    When a vehicle is involved in a crash or when its air bags deploy, inputs from the vehicle's sensors during the five to 10 seconds before impact are automatically preserved.

    That's usually enough to record things such as how fast the car was traveling and whether the driver applied the brake, was steering erratically or had a seat belt on.

    The idea is to gather information that can help investigators determine the causes of accidents and lead to safer vehicles.
    But privacy advocates say government regulators and automakers are spreading an intrusive technology without putting in place policies to prevent misuse of the information.

    Information collected by the recorders is increasingly showing up in lawsuits, criminal cases and high-profile accidents. Massachusetts Lt. Gov. Timothy Murray initially said he wasn't speeding and was wearing his seat belt when he crashed a government-owned car last year.

    But the Ford Crown Victoria's data recorder told a different story: It showed the car was traveling more than 100 mph and Murray wasn't belted in.

    In 2007, New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine was seriously injured in the crash of an SUV driven by a state trooper. Corzine was a passenger. The SUV's recorder showed the vehicle was traveling 91 mph on a parkway where the speed limit was 65 mph, and Corzine didn't have his seat belt on.

    It's extremely difficult for vehicle owners to disable the recorders. Although some models have had recorders since the early 1990s, a federal requirement that automakers disclose their existence in owner's manuals didn't go into effect until three months ago. Automakers that voluntarily put recorders in vehicles are also required to gather a minimum of 15 types of data.

    Besides the proposal to put recorders in all new vehicles, the traffic-safety administration is also considering expanding the data requirement to include up to 30 additional types of data, such as whether the vehicle's electronic-stability control was engaged. Engineers have identified more than 80 data points that might be useful.

    Privacy complaints have gone unheeded.

    "Right now we're in an environment where there are no rules, there are no limits, there are no consequences and there is no transparency," said Lillie Coney, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a privacy-advocacy group.

    "Most people who are operating a motor vehicle have no idea this technology is integrated into their vehicle."

    Part of the concern is that the increasing computerization of cars and the growing communications to and from vehicles using GPS navigation and General Motors' OnStar system could lead to unintended uses of recorder data.

    "Basically your car is a computer now, so it can record all kinds of information," said Gloria Bergquist, vice president of the Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers. The alliance opposes the government requiring recorders in all vehicles.
    Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said that requiring recorders in all new cars and light trucks "will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."
    88L black, dailydriver
    88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
    4 88/89 disassembled
    91L green
    91GL aqua pwrsteer
    92GL red a/c reardmg
    3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
    1952 Cessna170B floatplane

  • #2
    Another reason to stay away from new cars. Event recorders could be abused to the nth degree. Cops wouldn't have to bother with radar anymore and merely insist you plug your box into their system. Just like tax returns how far back could they then go to issue tickets for any other entries that exceed the highest posted speed limit?
    Hopefully someone will come up with a way to defeat this 'big Brother' and be legally able to offer it to the public.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "Black Boxes In Cars"

      Originally posted by Bert View Post
      Another reason to stay away from new cars. Event recorders could be abused to the nth degree. Cops wouldn't have to bother with radar anymore and merely insist you plug your box into their system. Just like tax returns how far back could they then go to issue tickets for any other entries that exceed the highest posted speed limit?
      Hopefully someone will come up with a way to defeat this 'big Brother' and be legally able to offer it to the public.
      I don't think it's recognized by the law yet that you have to keep them. I believe our Festivas have them under the driver's seat.
      In love with a MadScientist!:thumbright:
      There's a fine line between breathtaking ingenuity and "That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen!"

      Comment


      • #4
        All Festivas have them but they only will display binary codes that were set prior to the test with no useful idea of when the event happened
        that set the code...We have the last cars loyal to their owners !

        Newer cars do not have to be plugged in to a cop car, they can transmit data any time someone requests it.
        Some cars have used this feature to warn drivers of a wreck ahead and to even limit speed until past the danger
        area..and by newer that is from around 2002 to present, plenty of time to perfect all this new tech.
        Reflex paint by Langeman...Lifted...Tow Rig

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "Black Boxes In Cars"

          Originally posted by DriverOne View Post
          I don't think it's recognized by the law yet that you have to keep them. I believe our Festivas have them under the driver's seat.
          I think that's the seat belt control unit. Canadian Festivas don't the automatic seat belts so there's no "black box" under the driver's seat. All you'll find under my seat is a little too much trash

          Sent from somewhere west of here via Tapatalk!
          Last edited by fastivaca; 12-08-2012, 01:45 PM.
          Ian
          Calgary AB, Canada
          93 L B6T: June 2016 FOTM
          59 Austin Healey "Bugeye" Sprite

          "It's infinitely better to fail with courage than to sit idle with fear...." Chip Gaines (pg 167 of Capital Gaines, Smart Things I Learned Doing Stupid Stuff)

          Link to the "Road Trip Starting Points" page of my Econobox Café blog

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DriverOne View Post
            I believe our Festivas have them under the driver's seat.
            I am fairly certain that is just the power seatbelt computer, unless it is there on the manual seatbelt cars as well.

            I doubt they would have put a data recorder in what is pretty much an Ecobox from the late 80s early 90s.
            Now maybe a Mercedes or an Audi from that time period could have had one, those germans are always the first ones to adopt new tech for their cars.
            1991 Ford Festiva BP (Full Aspire/Rio Swap) (337k Miles) (Around 95k Engine)
            2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport 2.2L DOHC Ecotec (Threw a Rod)
            1998 Chevy Monte Carlo LS 3.1 V6 (225k miles) Best MPG = 28

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            • #7
              That's why I drive an 89' Festiva, and a 99' Dodge Ram.

              If this link works it is a list of vehicles with "black boxes". www.rimkus.com/uploads/pdfs/Event_Data_Recorder.pdf

              And here crashteams.com/pdf/Crashteams%20CDR%20Vehicle%20List.pdf
              Last edited by 2xclutchin; 12-08-2012, 01:56 PM.
              Mike Holmgren
              Thief Rvr Fls, MN
              1989 Festiva L, carb. 4 spd.
              "If at first you don't succeede, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway."

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              • #8
                Ahhh.....Ray LaHood. Same guy that has advocated having GPS based transmitters installed that transmit where you go, when, and how many miles you drive. Then, he wants to do away with taxes on gasoline and instead tax people PER MILE DRIVEN. The idea is to recover some of the lost tax revenue caused by the higher MPG of most cars on the road today and the increasing number of Hybrid vehicles. This has actually been proposed and discussed several times in Congress.
                Brian

                93L - 5SP, FMS springs, 323 alloys, 1st gen B6, ported head & intake, FMS cam, ported exhaust manifold w/2-1/4" head pipe.
                04 Mustang GT, 5SP, CAI, TFS plenum, 70mm TB, catted X, Pypes 304SS cat-back, Hurst Billet+ shifter, SCT/Bama tuned....4.10's & cams coming soon
                62 Galaxie 2D sedan project- 428, 3x2V, 4SP, 3.89TLOC

                1 wife, 2 kids, 9 dogs, 4 cats......
                Not enough time or money for any of them

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                • #9
                  There was a case close to 10 years ago where a party rented an "unlimited mileage in California" vehicle from a major car rental company with a good flat weerkly rate. He drove it a few thousand miles, including into Nevada, and returned it as promised, on time, to where he rented it in California.

                  The car rental company charged him "per mile," having tracked him via the black box (which was GPS-enabled) going into Nevada.

                  The matter went to court, where the car rental company prevailed based on those several pages of four-point type (called an "adhesion contract" becaause they're sticking it to you) you agree to but almost nobody reads.
                  88L black, dailydriver
                  88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                  4 88/89 disassembled
                  91L green
                  91GL aqua pwrsteer
                  92GL red a/c reardmg
                  3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                  1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Surely you've all seen this:

                    As consumers become more savvy about shopping for car insurance, insurance companies are transforming how they do business. The industry says new technology is enabling companies to base their rates not just on where a driver lives, but how well a driver actually drives.


                    Would you really want your insurance company to know you're doing wheelies in your Festy?

                    Eventually, as mapping data gets more refined (stop signs are depicted on electronic maps) and computer-controlled traffic lights get smarter (making it possible for the black box to know what color the light facing you is right now), they'll know that you ran a stop sign, or floored the gas pedal when the light turned from green to yellow, or even that you used the HOV lane for 10 seconds to pass Granny when she was dawdling in the fast lane.

                    Five years ago, I was driving a rental car north on the M-1 out of London and stopped in a rest area for a bit. On the ramp back onto the motorway, I passed a sign (I wish I'd taken a picture) that basically said:

                    1. We took a picture of your car while you were here and decoded your license plate.
                    2. If you did anything wrong during your visit, we know who you are and will come and get you.
                    Last edited by AlaskaFestivaGuy; 12-08-2012, 03:33 PM.
                    88L black, dailydriver
                    88LX silver a/c, dailydriver
                    4 88/89 disassembled
                    91L green
                    91GL aqua pwrsteer
                    92GL red a/c reardmg
                    3 93L blue, 2 dailydriver, 1 frontdmg
                    1952 Cessna170B floatplane

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The box under our Festiva drivers seat is indeed the auto seatbelt controller, though it is a "box" which is "black."

                      I had heard the early ZX/2s didn't have a black box, but later models did.

                      I would pretty much assume any newer cars had one, or something similar that is recording and retaining the last several seconds of your drive time.

                      As far as tracking what people do, cell phones (sometimes even when turned off) and GPS devices may be recording your travels and/or broadcasting your position.

                      You should know if any of your new electronic devices are capable of recording, tracking, etc. New cars have always been large devices, but now they come with multiple smaller devices "embedded" in them. If you don't already know about these things, and your privacy is important to you, do some research.

                      Karl
                      '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
                      '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
                      '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
                      '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
                      '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AlaskaFestivaGuy View Post
                        ......Eventually, as mapping data gets more refined (stop signs are depicted on electronic maps) and computer-controlled traffic lights get smarter (making it possible for the black box to know what color the light facing you is right now), they'll know that you ran a stop sign, or floored the gas pedal when the light turned from green to yellow, or even that you used the HOV lane for 10 seconds to pass Granny when she was dawdling in the fast lane.......
                        All things that no one should do anyway. Not that I'm all for cameras everywhere, but if you get caught being an A**hole behind the wheel you deserve a ticket. I am hesitant to get an EZpass for the PA turnpike; not because of cameras but they do track you in a sense with the EZpass sensor on the car, and it would be a small matter to automatically send you a ticket if they determined that you got to your exit quicker than you should have.
                        If it has boobs or wheels, sooner or later you're going to have trouble with it.
                        Mark S.

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                        • #13
                          Only a matter of time until it will be impossible to go even 1 mph over the speed limit. Your gps tracker knows what city you're in, what street and the posted mph of that street and remotely governs your vehicle to the posted limit. Isn't the future awesome !
                          "Its not fast, but its fast for a festiva."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would call this entrapment and sue the car maker! They know what the maximum speed of the roads in North America, so why have the car go 200mph?

                            Just another scam for the masses who are to lazy or to dumbed down to read and "understand" the small print.

                            But masses are willing to give up freedom for security and they will get what they deserve!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EVOGUN View Post
                              masses are willing to give up freedom for security and they will get what they deserve!
                              I entirely agree.
                              In love with a MadScientist!:thumbright:
                              There's a fine line between breathtaking ingenuity and "That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen!"

                              Comment

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