Experimenting with oil.

[ryanprins13]

So i decided to try something different this winter for oil in my festiva. Normally I use 10w30 in the summer and 5w30 in the winter on my stock 1993 with 440,000km. In the winter engine oil, coolant and grease obviously take longer to heat up and run cooler period. I theorized that the oil takes longer to heat up and doesnt get as hot as in the summer because i do mostly highway driving and we usually are around -15c in the winter average, generally get a least a week straight of -30c and the oil pan is right there in the wind... So in the fall i used a temp gun on the oil pan and concluded that the oil probably runs around 190-212f operating temp. So a 5w30 at 195f is the same viscosity as a 5w20 at 183f. And a 5w30 at 225f is the same viscosity as a 5w20 at 212f. So 5w20 in the winter only needs to be about 13 degrees f cooler than 5w30 in the summer in order to be the same viscosity. So i put 5w20 in my engine to try it. Of course then we have the warmest winter i have ever lived through.... Coldest day was only -20c so far! But anyway, its a bit preliminary since ive only had this oil in for a month, (2500km) but the difference was striking. It sounds strange but it feels like i had more power the day i changed the oil. When i hit the gas the car really wanted to go way more than usual. Seems to rev up quicker and the engine feels smoother and better than before. It sounds nicer when it starts in the cold. This has been my daily driver for Close to 9 years, i have put 220,000km on it myself so i know how it drives and how it feels. I never thought changing an oil viscosity like that would make such a huge difference. The stranger thing though is that i have always had that bad tick from the hla's. Ever since ive had it it would tick bad on startup for about 5-20 seconds one time out of every 3 starts or so. More frequently, louder and longer when cold out. I have tried a ton of different brands of oil-even 10w30HDMO, used oil additives, tried a ton of different filters and the ticking never changed significantly. But since i put the 5w20 in it hasnt ticked once! Thats never happened before, its always been relatively the same. I wasnt really expecting that from a lighter oil but it makes sense- flows quicker and pressurizes up top quicker than a heavier oil at startup. I used to have an oil pressure gauge but i robbed it for another car a few years ago. I bought another one now and i hope to install it soon to see what the pressure difference is with the lighter oil.*
Has anyone else played around with different viscosities of oil in the B3 or B6? Anyone else tried 20 or 40 weight? Anything weird happen?


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[TorqueEffect]

Only ever used 5w30 and 10w30. The B3 and B6 engines don't really like the 10w30 (even when it is full synthetic) in the winter, some lifter clatter on startup, but goes away quickly.

I've always gone by what the manufacture recommends. I always cringe when I hear people putting heavier weight oils in an engine just because it is really worn out, all that is going to do is accelerated the inevitable death of that engine.

I am a bit intrigued by the lack of ticking when you use 5w20 though, and it seems like Ford recently put out a thing where allot of older Ford models, they changed the recommended oil for allot of their older models to 5w20, although the Festiva was not on there, nor was any other car that used a B series motor.

[harpon]

I'm just the opposite, and distressed I can't even straight 40 weight anymore. I love thick oil, it coats and stays coating, seals the gaskets and seals better in my opinion and doesn't break down. The Aspires got almost 118 K now and doesn't burn or leak a drop between changes. Of course I'm in Florida now- if I was still running in those kinda temps you guys are speaking of, I wouldn't mind then running the straight 30 weight. Drove from 175 K to 275 in the 88 Festiva always running the heavy stuff. It never lets you down.

[bravekozak]

I used to run straight oils in my Jeep, changing every six months with no issues.
I became lazy. 10W30 for Toronto.

5W30 for you.
Or 0W30 if you are up north.

[jason_]

Rotella 15w40 year around.

New bearings on turned journals, new oil pump. New lifters.

150k miles later. Quiet as a kitten. Still pegs 80psi cold (I imagine relief is opening) , holds 40psi hot slow idle.

/me shrugs

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[ryanprins13]

Only ever used 5w30 and 10w30. The B3 and B6 engines don't really like the 10w30 (even when it is full synthetic) in the winter, some lifter clatter on startup, but goes away quickly.

I've always gone by what the manufacture recommends. I always cringe when I hear people putting heavier weight oils in an engine just because it is really worn out, all that is going to do is accelerated the inevitable death of that engine.

I am a bit intrigued by the lack of ticking when you use 5w20 though, and it seems like Ford recently put out a thing where allot of older Ford models, they changed the recommended oil for allot of their older models to 5w20, although the Festiva was not on there, nor was any other car that used a B series motor.

Ya, ive never tried 10w30 in the winter. No point. Same viscosity when hot. The only reason 10w30 used to be recommended is 5w30 would shear twice as fast as 10w30, but its not so much of an issue anymore. I buy the cheapest oil i can find so i still do 10 in the summer tho.
There are good reasons to use heavier oil. They are if you are running the oil a lot hotter than it was intended (because it ends up being the same viscosity), if you have increased the horsepower very very significantly (like triple or more) then you want a higher hths viscosity but a diesel 30weight will also give you that, and if your engine is very very worn. As in you have almost no compression and your bearings are almost completely gone, not just high mileage.
In a normal engine heavier oil does accelerate the wear, but it doesnt make it explode immediately so people think its fine. The rings and bearings may have lasted 800,000km on proper oil but only 600,000 on heavier oil. Old Cars can run on almost anything and survive for a while. You can run your car out of oil for a short time and itl still run afterwards. I know a guy who runs 20w50 in all his farm equipment, his f-150 and his impala. They still run, just not well. An old diesel pickup could still run on 0w20 if you didn't put much load on it or work it, it just wouldn't be good for it.
For back recommending the oil they probably did it to engines they had built and left the mazda's alone. I think the 5w20 gets pumped to the hla's faster and they pressurize quicker than with a 30 weight.
I could talk for hours about oil but im not going to type much. Basically pressure does not lubricate, flow does. Pressure is the resistance to flow. You need enough film thickness to keep the hydrodynamic wedge in the bearings, but you need enough flow to get the oil in there at high rpm. If the thick oil isnt flowing well enough it wont fill the wedge and wont make it up to the piston walls very well even though you have 90psi. If the oil is too thin it will squirt out the sides o the bearings before the revolution is complete and your hydrodynamic wedge will fail and you will enter mixed or barrier lubrication. Same with not getting enough thick oil in there, you enter barrier or mixed lubrication. On startup you always have both of those even and especially with thick oil. Thicker oil stays on parts longer yes, but longer in minutes, not hours or days. When you start your car up again the oil that is left on lasts about 3 revolutions maybe, then you need new oil and thick oil takes way longer to get there.
Under barrier and mixed lubrication the additive package is what is most important, not viscosity. The new 0w16 oil that coming out relies heavily on its additive package to eliminate wear. A straight 40 or 30 weight has very little additive like that. Those oils are meant for stationary engines or equipment that runs 8-24hr shifts and stays at a mostly fixed rpm. Not suitable for cars. Cheap oils dont have as good of an additive package and will have more wear at startup or high rpm/load.
For oil being squished out of the bearings under high load or stress its the hths viscosity thats important. A 30grade can have a better hths viscosity than a 40 grade depending on how its made. Thats why many diesels take 30weight now. They just make the oil so it doesn't thin out as much under high shear.
Again, the main point is you want high flow, not high pressure to lubricate. An engine like our B3 will run with probably almost anything from vegetable oil, 0w16, 20w50, to hydraulic oil or atf. Just because it runs and doesn't immediately die doesn't mean its optimal though.
Im still a bit in the heavier oil camp because what i have read leads me to believe the 5w20 oils rely a bit much on their additive package to be good for an f-150 or 250 thats used solely for towing or a car that races and overheats its oil. For any car or truck that asks for 5w20 and doesn't do anything extreme that is best though. And at best a B3 needs a 30 weight with a high hths. I cant see a 40 grade being needed unless the oil temps are reaching 300f or your bearing clearances have doubled...
Oil also takes 20minutes of freeway driving to reach operating temperature. I have never had my oil reach op temp in town after a cold start and it takes minimum 20 min on the freeway, cools of when you get to a town. So if you rarely drive over 20min on a freeway you can use a lighter oil and it would never thin out more than the original grade was intended to.


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[nitrofarm]

I run 0w20 Full Syn in winter, 10w30 Full Syn in summer.Heavy Oil & Cold Temps are hard on moving Parts.Overly Heavy Oil in summer Robs HP.Plus your oil has a hard time getting through small orifices when its thick as syrup. And if your lifters tick its time for new ones, period. Ticking Lifters arent just annoying they hurt performance,fuel economy & can damage valve tips. The Only time I ever use an overly heavy oil is on engine that has low oil pressure. Some folks really overthink Oil Viscosity. But if they stay within the Manufacture's Recommendations they should be fine.

[navdoc101]

Read www.bobistheoilguy.com

[nitrofarm]

^an explanation of how oil samples are tested for Viscosity-

[navdoc101]

^an explanation of how oil samples are tested for Viscosity-

And a lot more.
Read the section Motor Oil University - Oil 101

[nitrofarm]

Ya, ive never tried 10w30 in the winter. No point. Same viscosity when hot.

I have to disagree 100% with ya ryan,most engine wear happens at start up when oil is cold and wont flow.
Thin oil can flow into my bearings and support my crank shaft with Hydro-static Pressure when its -20.
Thin Oil can allow my Hydraulic Lifters to pump up and become solid when its extremely cold.
Please share with us what documentation or research you use for your Philosophy. Thanks and Stay Warm !

[jason_]

99% of the time oil thins out when it gets warm.

Yes, the initial fire up is murder on bearings. They have oil? Yes. Oil pressure? No.

Thicker oil is OK, only if it's where it needs to be as mechanical pressures begin (ignition)

Rods ends always take the grunt. Mains are a bit more tolerable.

Between mileage, and tighter tolerances, thinner oil is becoming defacto.



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[ryanprins13]

I have to disagree 100% with ya ryan,most engine wear happens at start up when oil is cold and wont flow.
Thin oil can flow into my bearings and support my crank shaft with Hydro-static Pressure when its -20.
Thin Oil can allow my Hydraulic Lifters to pump up and become solid when its extremely cold.
Please share with us what documentation or research you use for your Philosophy. Thanks and Stay Warm !

I believe we are having a misunderstanding. I said i dont use 10w30 the winter because its too thick at startup, i use 5w30 because its thinner when cold and now im trying 5w20. So im not sure where we are disagreeing.

99% of the time oil thins out when it gets warm.

Yes, the initial fire up is murder on bearings. They have oil? Yes. Oil pressure? No.

Thicker oil is OK, only if it's where it needs to be as mechanical pressures begin (ignition)

Rods ends always take the grunt. Mains are a bit more tolerable.

Between mileage, and tighter tolerances, thinner oil is becoming defacto.



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When is the 1% of the time that oil doesnt thin out as it warms up?
Thicker oil is ok yes, but its detrimental at startup and what benefit does it offer to offset that? Rod ends and rings take the worst of it. Oil goes to the rings only after its gone through the mains and big ends.
*actually i never looked closely at that when i took apart the b3. It is like a typical engine where it flows through the mains to the big ends and then squirts out a hole in the connecting rod to the cylinder walls right?


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[jason_]

1 percent is the Special blends

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[ryanprins13]

1 percent is the Special blends

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Do you have a link to the product you mean? I couldn't find anything searching on google.
Thanks.


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