Offset wheels seem stupid

[harpon]

Just looking at wheels on craigslist and it dawned on me

If any offset at all- doesn't REVERSE make more sense?

For the sake of the wheels strength and lightweightness- ZERO offset seems best: the rim is supported in the MIDDLE- and generally LESS material could be used, because most wheels have a big hunk or spokes coming out to reach the FAR radial curve of the RIM- and yet they still typically channel in the middle of the rim- if the support met there- the spokes or alloy disk would be reduced in size-

AND with more inherent CENTERED support strength- the rim and spoke material could be less thick- saving weight there too.

But what really kicks my realization in then is considering the CV axles- the closer to the motor the hub and rotors are- THEN the SHORTER the CV axles can be-

and the LESS angular torsion and leverage stress they'd be subject to- You want the CV's to spin- not weigh more and have more stress by their own lengthy leverage- so zero offset or even reverse offset would seem to lead to shorter lighter and inherently stronger CVs.

I was considering trying to put trailer rims on the Aspire a while back- the trailer rims are very modern light and ZERO offset, and come in narrow widths. The maximum axle weights for each wheel were just barely less than a n Aspire curb weight- but I've taken that down some.
Where they are sabotaged is that they have a HUGE center bore- I wasn't sure if I could even get hubcetric spacers the correct size- they'd have to be thick- but the wheels still leave then just a tiny sliver of alloy between the lug holes and the LARGE hub bore- that would be the weak point and govern the axle weight limits they list for the wheel. I'll try to post a link to what I'm talking about-

anyway- being an old cyclist, my mind obsesses on these things a bit. so thought I"d put I up here-RUIDD:


below- the 87 Honda wheels I have now for the Aspire and 04 Accent- 9and the mark of the Prius someone gave me at the grocery- been working on that with some glazing putty) Got these wheels fairry cheap and they are still 5 inches or so I can run fast rolling 155, and the Aspire steers much easier in the parking lots.

[harpon]

Here is an example of a alloy trailer wheel and there are others on the site- I think the prices have raised in the year-plus since I toyed with the idea.

http://www.etrailer.com/Tires-and-Wheels/HWT/TTWAL041344.html

Now I'm struck by the way the alloy models- even though the offset is ZERO - still then curve away and support the rims at the very outer limit- for appearance sake it almost seems- when so much less material would be required at the center of the rim.

Other older styles and still rims demonstrate a center support:

http://www.etrailer.com/Tires-and-Wheels/Dexstar/AM20222DX.html

enjoy

[reddragon]

reverse offset

onset?

[Dragonhealer]

Mostly auto rims are offset to accommodate suspension and still have a decent geometry, creating all the objections you outlined.
I wonder if a set of Triumph TR3 rims would be useful on the Festiva/Aspire if a low profile narrow tyre could be found for them, 4 inch wide, 15 tall, 4 on 4-1/2 bolt pattern, very light stamped steel.

[Festiver]

It's all about space try to redesign the festiva suspension to accommodate a +0 wheel while maintaining the same track width it'd be much more cramped also the heavy positive offset allows the majority of the wheel to be closer to the strut which is the pivot point along with the ball joint this give a tighter turning motion and less of a swing on the outer lip all this said I'm running +0 wheels lol because I like the aggressiveness but they're technically illegal because they poke

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[harpon]

good discussion- seems like wider rims and tires also amplify the strut concerns you speak of

I wasn't that sure of positive or negative terms- and so "reverse offset"

[ryanprins13]

May have to do with the scrub radius. I posted about that in this thread near the end. http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=59566
Having a rim like that would change it drastically but i dont know enough about it to know what it would do to handling or tire wear.

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[harpon]

Well for what it's worth- I'm not really talking about changing wheels on our cars- as much as musing over design theory- it just seems the wheel could be stringer ad lighterif the rest of a hypothetical car- hopefully a high mileaged micro car like ours- could be designed to accommodate them

in another strange aside- I just discovered today that my 04 Accent has a REAR windshield wiper motor installed under the plastic on the back hatch, plugged into a wire harness- NO SWITCH for the option on the dash

and the empty stub of a wiper drive center install THROUGH the BACK GLASS- which will make it's removal a bit of a problem- leaving a hole in my back window
the hatch window BRAKE LIGHT is also a highly overblown affair- a great big unit attached with a heavy steel plate and three very long machine bolts- I'm sensing an oil company influence here in an Asian car of the early millennium. Gone is or car, but what this is more like is a lighter Escort with a 1.5 motor instead of 2.0

[harpon]

Well for what it's worth- I'm not really talking about changing wheels on our cars- as much as musing over design theory- it just seems the wheel could be stronger and lighter if the rest of a hypothetical car- hopefully a high mileaged micro car like ours- could be designed to accommodate them
If it were up to me- instead of nursimg now a car 20 years or older-I'd like to be driving a 1000 to 1200 lb car with 750 cc- .75 liters- of screaming power and 100 80r 13 wheels - zero offset alloy. For my old age in town driving that would meet my own needs and leave less enviro impact.

in another strange aside- I just discovered today that my 04 Accent has a REAR windshield wiper motor installed under the plastic on the back hatch, plugged into a wire harness- There is then NO SWITCH for the option on the dash- just a solid panel next to the dash dimmer- a factory looking affair
???? a rebuild or something?

and the empty stub of a wiper drive center installed THROUGH the BACK GLASS- which will make it's removal a bit of a problem- leaving a hole in my back window

the hatch window BRAKE LIGHT next to it is also a highly overblown affair- a great big unit attached with a heavy steel plate and three very long machine bolts- There may be 10 pounds of virtuall overblown drummed u weight added to the back hatch and to be assisted and held by the support pissed ons.

I'm sensing an oil company influence here in an Asian car of the early millennium. Gone is our car, but what this is more like is a lighter Escort with a 1.6 motor instead of 2.0

below the "James Bond" 64 Astin look-a-like 04 Accent and the old 96 Aspire- a much better sightline out the back of the Aspire I'm afraid!

[ryanprins13]

So, again i dont know much about this but theres 2 reasons i can think of why they dont do it currently. One is the wheel well width would have to be wider. That takes away from engine bay room and room in the back.
Second is again this scrub radius. Heres kinda what it would look like on a festiva:

It would change how any vehicle handles. To get zero offset and still zero scrub you would have to tilt the strut in a fair ways and i think for comefort its better to have struts a bit closer to verticle? I dont know...

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[Festiver]

All in all everything has its purpose they were made a way for a reason because it works

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[harpon]

Well we're really only talking a couple of inches on the rims of a Festiva or Aspire ayway- If the rim is 5 inches- the center point is at 2.5 inches- I think my Aspire rims are listed at 35 or 40mm offset- which equals about an inch and a half.

given that configuration- why not have a stronger, lighter wheel by centering the vertical support?

As you already may know- there is more clearance available towards the body than towards the struts-most people running larger diameter rims- 14 or 15 or 16 run up against the clearances as they are

but given something more of a stock size- zero offset would in fact push the same rim and tires outward a mere INCH AND A HALF

giving the wheels with say a 155 width tire a GREATER wheelbase and stability without increasing the weight or rolling resistence- that's the crux of my own thinking

and/or- shortening the length of the axles if the tires were kept in the same relative position and not pushed out 1.5 inches. Looking now at the diagrams and considering the components likely to be the same on the CV axle- the loss of the length would be a minimal gain of weight reduction- but the shortening might decrease random torsion stress- I DON"T KNOW much about cvs and suspensions

These thoughts began in my own mind with the wheel only

I'm suspect of the way alloy rims finally came along- being a bike racer everything was alloy- For a lifetime I watched the agonizingly slow introduction of alloy wheels -

they tended to put them on larger and more gas eating cars first- the small passenger cars have been the LAST to get alloy wheel- as if they wanted to level the MPG field TOWARD the larger vehicles

The past decade and a half then- as better wheels became more common- they all had to get WIDER- a racing influence in a more crowded world with more backed up traffic-

as the steel came off- more rubber weight went back on- Sure, the car may be technically more stable, but the wheels are re-heavied and the rolling resistance increases with the width- losing MPG and keeping the power needs higher, and a greater need for ever larger power steering units among some of we who are geriatric. and weak.

[harpon]

All in all everything has its purpose they were made a way for a reason because it works

I like to think that in this internet environment WE can contribute to how things are done sometimes

[Festiver]

I like to think that in this internet environment WE can contribute to how things are done sometimes

Most times yeah and with wheels the options are almost endless

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