1991 ford festiva timing

[ghm11]

Hello,I have a 1991 Festiva ,that has no timing advance ,it runs I set timing at 21 .I have replaced the module still no advance ? A little history,I drove from PA to FL no problems about a week later went to start ,no start ,checked fuel and spark had both ,so i am thinking timing belt,I take it to a shop ,because I am working to many hours to work on it ,they check it, say its the timing belt,so they do belt water pump seals ,then call say it needs a module they replace it,i pick up the car on a Saturday they were closed , it was not running right ,call Monday they say flat spot in tps ,I replace tps ,runs a little better but not right ,I finally have time to do a little checking and find no timing advance ,and replaced the module again no luck ,oh I forgot they replaced the distributor with a used one ,they had the car 2 weeks ,I will not take it back to them I could have thrown parts at it ,the car has about 170000 i am at a loss ,thanks for any info ,and i am sorry my typing stinks. any Festiva gurus in south florida?

[Rick the Quick]

I just went through this on an '86 Toyota truck with a 22RTE engine. It turned out to be a wire that ran from the igniter to the ECU. I tried looking on Toyota forums but could not find the answer. On the owners insistence I replaced the TPS and that didn't fix it. $99 down the drain. I don't ever (except as last resort) replace a part until I verify that is bad. We tried the ECU from his parts truck as well as the igniter and no change. He bought another ECU and igniter off eBay and no change. He even (against my advice) bought a new distributor with no change. I found a Toyota engine /electrical/fuel system manual for '86 22R engines on eBay for $15 that has logical troubleshooting for any given problem and it led me to the problem within an hour. The wire in particular was at one time spliced together with a piece of speaker wire. Not soldered, just stripped and twisted to the factory wire and taped over. The tape should have been a give away. This wire runs from the left inner fender (igniter/coil) over the engine to the passenger side of the firewall to the ECU. I imagine the original wire cooked from sitting directly on the hot valve cover. This is a factory turbo model so I imagine it builds some good heat. I soldered in a new length of wire, taped it carefully and went to the junkyard to find the hardware need to keep all the wires and vacuum lines up off of the valve cover. Sorry for getting off track. I have the '93 Factory service manual as well as the '93 electrical+vacuum troubleshooting manuals here. I will see if they will have what you are looking for and get back on here later with my findings. I will tell you right now, I did look in my manuals regarding an issue which I can not remember and the manuals I have referred me to a third manual "Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis". I bought one on eBay for 1992 Ford Cars and trucks. It is said to cover all Ford cars. It does not. There is no information on the Festiva. It's funny how my '93 Ford manuals refer me to their Powertrain Control manuals for answers and then the Festiva is not covered. I guess I need to buy the '93 Powertrain manual.

[william]

Check afm wiring and make sure the afm flapper moves freely. Also make sure there are no splits or cracks in the intake tract.

[ghm11]

Thanks for the replies I will do some checking over the weekend.

[Rick the Quick]

Here's what I found in my '93 FSM (factory service manual). :






Reading the description of the Festiva ignition I see it differs from the Toyota ignition. Our igniters have 4? wires the Toyota has around 10 wires. If you read through the pages out of the service manual you will notice it refers you to the Powertrain Control manual which I do not have for '93. I erroneously assumed the '92 manual I have pictured would work. It doesn't cover the Festiva or Probe so I can't offer anymore help than I have. Your problem is probably confined to the distributor / igniter / ECU/ and possibly coil and the wiring that connects them together. As far as the ECU goes they seldom fail. More likely it is a connection between distributor and ECU. The Powertrain Control manual will walk you through the troubleshooting procedures to find your problem. It gives you information like voltage measurements at various points at the ECU and also resistances that you need to see at various points. It wouldn't hurt to check all ground wires related to the ignition and also check the engine to body ground. I can look in the Electrical+Vacuum Troubleshooting manual for an ignition schematic and post it on here. It should show all grounds for the ignition circuit. Also the schematic may give you an idea of what connections are critical to the ECU as far as it getting rpm information. One other thing you need to try is to pull the trouble codes from the computer. The problem on the Toyota that I mentioned did not set any trouble codes. Perhaps because it was intermittent?

[ryanprins13]

How did you set or check the timing? Did you ground the sti connector first?

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[Rick the Quick]

Here is where I would look for the problem :

The yellow/black wire sends a signal to the ECU that tells the ECU the rpm your engine is operating at. If this signal is compromised the ECU will not advance the timing. You need to check the resistance of this wire between the ECU (terminal 2E) and crankshaft position sensor (distributor). Easier said then done but try to measure across all connectors. You should measure no more than a couple of ohms. if you are seeing 25, 50 ohms or something like that the ECU is not getting a good signal to process. I may be wrong on my diagnosis but i am very confident this is the problem. The Toyota had a compromised wire in a similar circuit and it had absolutely no advance until I repaired the wire. It aint rocket science. Just logic. The ECU processes the information and doles out the advance if it likes the information it is getting. If it is not getting the right information no advance for Mr. Festiva. Good luck, let us know what you find.

[Rick the Quick]

Go back and carefully read the description of how your ignition works. That's the information I posted on post #5
It says something to the effect "the ignition timing is controlled ENTIRELY by the PCM (ECU).
Crankshaft position and engine rpm are sensed by the Crankshaft Position sensor (CKP) This information is then sent to the PCM (ECU)
It is sent via the yellow and black wire I have shown in post #7. The CKP is actually inside the distributor. I dont know if you can get your ohmmeter probe inside the distributor to where the yellow and black wire connect. If you can't I would carefully pierce the insulation with a pin and measure the resistance between this point and terminal 2E at the ECU.
One other good possibility is a defective CKP. I believe if you find this to be your problem you will need to replace the entire distributor. A good way to verify proper distributor operation is by trying a good know distributor in place of yours. There are quite a few members in PA. Perhaps there is one close to you that has a known good spare distributor.

[Dragonhealer]

Rick, that is a good diagnosis! You didn't quite note that a short to ground of the sti wiring will also result in locked timing. (I had this once on a '91 Miata)

[Rick the Quick]

I actually didn't consider the STI wire could be grounded. I never claimed to have all the answers. For my next trick I am attempting to get this nightmare of a car aka. As a '94 Probe (V6, automatic) running. I am thinking of guys like damnkid that swapped these engines into a Festiva. I need to figure out what the essentials are to get this thing running. I have seen it run and one day it quit going down I-40. Timing belt didn't break. It won't crank with key. It will if you directly energize the starter solenoid. It's a major ordeal to test the neutral safety switch. It has good access but the plug in harness is way tight. I'm following the troubleshooting in the FSM and have come across a roadblock. I'm thinking bypass the switch entirely. Then cranking with the key on there is no spark or fuel. Disconnect the starter solenoid and turn the key on and the fuel pump runs continuesly. If I want to use the factory service manual to troubleshoot any further I am referred to book #3 Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis. Like I didn't spend enough money on the 2 FSM's. The main manual must be 600 pages or x 3 the Festiva manual. If I can't get the Probe running she will probably junk it. The engine management schematic on this car is very intimidating. I keep telling myself there has got to be a way to re-wire it down to the basics. Also I will mention that this car wad worked on by butchers. I opened the luggage area to check the inertia switch and found a pile of relays and burnt fuses scattered about. Someone installed aftermarket intake tubing with a cone filter. It was not secured and sat on top of the transaxle and neutral safety switch. This and other indicators tell me its going to be a long road to recovery.

[Rick the Quick]

The essentials being start circuit and power to the ECU and fuel pump. The car would be able to start in drive or reverse. If you are smart enough to drive you should be intelligent enough to put 'er in park to start the engine. There are ways to wire the fuel pump to work only when the ignition pulse is recognized. What am I leaving out?

[Rick the Quick]

Here's a thought : remove intake manifold and cut/machine the center plenum area to accept a carb. Adapt a 6 cylinder point ignition distributor or convert to the old style aftermarket pointless ignition. It sounds like a lot of work and I am sure it would be, not to mention cutting a hole in the hood for the carb and air cleaner. I have owned a lot of sweet running cabureted/point ignition cars over the years. I am waiting for responses telling all the advantages of the fuel injection/computerized vehicles. I am aware of them. I also know that the prospects of fixing this Probe don't look real good. I know "just read the trouble codes". It's an OBD1 system and it is not showing any codes, well actually it shows weak O2 sensor right side. That is certainly not the cause of the car not running. Then there is always the prospect of going to a megasquirt system....Not going to happen. Then again I am not sure if this transmission will even work without a computer telling it what to do. The days of putting a 302 and a C4 in your '32 Ford are history....lol.

[Rick the Quick]

All indications point to the distributor. Mazda used a distributor that housed the igniter and coil. Igniters tended to die from heat. I found out a lot of guys converted the distributors to a GM module (igniter) and mounted it externally along with the coil. I also found you can buy a complete new distributor for as low as $50 or the best for $209. Sorry for hijacking this thread.

[ghm11]

Thanks for the info I have been working 10 to 14 hr days I have not had time to look further thank again hope to have this weekend off.

[ghm11]

Thanks but I am not in pa I am in FL and I set the timing with the wire grounded originally