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Automotive LED Application Info Thread

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  • Automotive LED Application Info Thread

    One of the major innovations we are experiencing in electronics is the continued development of LEDs. There are now "tactical flashlights" that use one to five watt LEDs that are rivalling or even exceeding the old incandescent bulbs, including halogen and xenon. These lights are regularly going over 60 to 80 Lumens in output. Also, according to one article I just read, Hyundai is working on an LED headlight system. Those of you who haven't quite thought about this, go out and spend $20 at Target for one of the new Maglite LED bulbs for their 2 or 3 cell Maglites. Or compare the new LED MiniMag to the old ones. BIG difference in light output and battery run time! Not to mention bulb life if you drop one of these things...

    Among the benefits of LEDs are compactness, shock resistance, low current draw, and different color properties.

    Perhaps the largest downside is the LED's propensity for putting out its light mainly in a directional throw. In other words, it ain't like a regular lightbulb. Many LEDs are now required to be put in an array to throw their light around a large area. Household lighting is just beginning to address this with screw in bulb units, etc. It's just a matter of time, however, till this problem is improved, if not solved entirely.

    One of my projects is to use as many LED applications as possible in my Festivas in order to make them more efficient, reducing electrical drain while providing equal or better output, especially when considering exterior safety lighting.

    There are "plug in" products now available to be installed in place of the older bulbs, but so far I've not seen anything solid in how well they do this, and which products are adequate or meet U.S. safety standards.

    Some of you may already know.

    I'm starting this thread in hopes we can all contribute information on the new LED electronics, existing products, our conversions, etc.

    I'm planning an LED rear spoiler unit (modified Festiva stock spoiler) to provide running, brake (replacing stock 3rd brake light), turn signal and possible reverse lights on Luxstiva. I hope to have the help of an OSU engineering student as well.

    Other plans are for replacement of my turn signals, lower brake lights, running lights, and instrument panel lights. Also, converting an Escort dome light to LEDs will help interior illumination. Additional LED lighting can be placed under the dash or under the seats, plus in the rear area as a hatch light. An under hood light system would be nice, too.

    Here is one thing I've found in this article:



    Due to the electrical properties of high-brightness LEDs, they cannot be powered directly from the automotive battery voltage. They require specialized power converters delivering constant current output. The large variety of LED fixtures used in automobiles calls for various types of LED driver topologies. These power converters must be in compliance with numerous industry specifications. This article will address applicable power-converter topologies useful for driving LEDs. The emphasis will be on LED driver immunity to conducted electrical disturbances that exist in automobiles.
    That para suggests that "plug and play" may not always work, or work well, especially when replacing many or most of the car's incandescent bulbs with LEDs.

    Here is another article covering use of MCUs (microcontrollers):



    I'm simply not knowledgable enough to explain all this, but it seems that the lower current draw of LEDs creates problems with resistance factors, for example, that of correct operation of flasher units.

    One more link, to LEDtronics products:




    One of my questions is do we use the "plug in" LED bulbs as they become available for our exterior lights or do we hack apart our taillights (for example) and construct our own LED clusters, possibly with whatever controller/drivers needed incorporated into the assembly itself?

    Comments, links, etc. from others are welcome!

    Karl
    '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
    '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
    '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
    '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
    '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

  • #2
    I allready got some from that ledtronics for my caprice... Of course the stupid chevy computer refused to play nice and turned on all my dash indicators and refused to allow my blinkers to work.... but I did get leds...

    Comment


    • #3
      Autozone has solid state flasher modules that will work with leds.... as long as the festi does not have one of those stupid computers like some otehr cars do.... I dare any of you guys to get leds to work in a mekrur.

      Comment


      • #4
        Cars will switch over to LEDs as the auto manufacturers catch up with technology. The only real push for it is the longer lifetime, as the electricity used and brightness aren't that big of an issue. The lights use such small power that converting to LED wouldn't save you much in fuel use.

        With all lights on and radio blaring you're only using maybe 1/5 of a horsepower to drive the alternator.
        OX SMASH!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh yeah, "long life." I forgot that.

          As for the reduced current, another of my ideas involves an auxilliary battery to run an emergency lighting system and solar panels on top of the spoiler to keep the main battery trickle-charged up. Extra solar power (for the aux battery) may be involved as well, if I can get them to attach to the inside of the rear hatch glass and my future sunroof glass.

          Thanks,

          Karl
          '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
          '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
          '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
          '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
          '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

          Comment


          • #6
            brightness is an issue.... you can use MUCH brighter bulb arrays and still draw much less... running brighter incandescent bulbs puts stress on your electrical system...

            Comment


            • #7
              I've done a lot of work with LEDs in automotive and computer applications, and have run into all the usual issues. The primary one that concerns me is using them for running/brake lights in a replacement situation.

              I've seen a lot of people use so called "LED replacement" bulbs in their vehicles to replace lights in these situations. In almost every case, the bulbs simulated the function of a 2 filament incandescent by having half the LEDs turned on for running, and all turned on for braking. This just doesn't work properly because of the way LEDs emit their light, and how LEDs work collectively.

              Incandescent bulbs usually show a doubling or near doubling in brightness when the number of bulbs are doubled, or in this case, the number of filaments. LEDs, on the other hand, have the odd trait of increasing intensity at a lower rate than one would expect when adding additional light sources. It has something to do with the alignment and collimation of the light cast by LEDs. So, what happens is that you end up with a very weak brake light, and an okay running light.

              OEMs have overcome this by using circuits similar to those mentioned in the first post to flash the LEDs rapidly (say 50/50 on/off) for running lights, and then having them on 100% for braking. You can see this particularly in some of the new Lexus sport utes. If you sort of "flash" your eyes past one at night, you'll see a strobe like pattern.

              I think to incorporate this properly for ourselves, we would have to consider either building our own, or waiting for the technology to filter down to an affordable level. EG: wait for vehicles with factory LED tail lamp assemblies to hit the wreckers so we can take them apart, see how they tick, and incorporate the technology. As I understand it, some manufacturers have gone to a simple system where the controller is at the tail light, and receives the same electrical signals as an incandescent bulb would, thereby making this a very easy piece of kit for us to steal for ourselves.

              As for headlamp applications, Audi will be the first to market with full LED headlamps on the 2008 R8, and all other manufacturers are working to bring the technology to market.

              Interior applications? How about my Toyota? The entire dashboard is LED powered, with 43 in the gauge cluster alone. It's absolutely beautiful to see. Dome lights are another issue. I had a dome light made with 25 super high intensity white LEDs, and it couldn't begin to compete with the traditional incandescent I had in the first place, but this leads back to collimation and collective output.

              I think the next big steps really are effective and affordable lensing technology, and finding ways to deal with the heat put out by higher wattage LEDs. (they tend to self destruct if not cooled properly)

              Comment


              • #8
                How does your led dash react to the dimmer?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Perfectly, thanks. Although...the aftermarket LEDs that I purchased, and the ones I made myself all had problems with dimming.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Monkeyracing wrote:

                    ...some manufacturers have gone to a simple system where the controller is at the tail light, and receives the same electrical signals as an incandescent bulb would, thereby making this a very easy piece of kit for us to steal for ourselves.
                    This is what I'd like to do. Incorporate another car's LED and controller unit into my own tails. I'll probably use one extra power halogen bulb for the left side backup function, however.

                    I want good visibility from all angles, too. I think doing my own arrays in a cut up taillight would ensure this.

                    One thing I'd like to do is to "bench test" all the electrics before installation.

                    Thanks for all the info and thoughts, guys! Keep it coming!!

                    Karl
                    '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
                    '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
                    '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
                    '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
                    '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      you should separate your light wiring into 2 sets, one for incandescent and 1 for led. then buy a 12v led transformer/Driver circuit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Y'know, having thought more about it, and seeing the way that some tail lamps are wired these days, I think it might be more complicated than I initially thought. I believe that some manufacturers are actually driving the LED tails via the body computer, through relays, and then to the bulbs themselves.

                        The simple solution (the one that I would use) would be to take the signal from a switch, to a controller, and then the lights. Manufacturers being what they are likely run from switch, to ECM, through a solid state relay/controller unit and then the bulbs. Wiring to the tails themselves would likely be ground, power, and signal.

                        Why must they do this sort of thing?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here's a link to a thread on archiebold's "Completely digital cluster" thread in Custom Int and Ext forum:



                          Could be some good ideas in there.

                          Karl
                          '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
                          '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
                          '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
                          '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
                          '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yup, I was reading that thread yesterday. It seems like at first the solution he chose was overcomplicated, but he simplified it a bit, and it makes more sense. There are a lot of good articles on working with LEDs and building controllers at http://makezine.com/blog. You need to use the search feature there, but those people are great hardware hackers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks! That may help.

                              Karl
                              '93GL "Prettystiva" ticking B3 and 5 speed, backup DD; full swaps in spring!
                              '91L "AquaMutt" my '91L; B6 swap/5 speed & Aspire brakes, DD/work car
                              '92L "Twinstiva" 5sp, salvage titled, waiting for repairs...
                              '93GL "Luxstiva," '94 B6 engine & ATX; needs overhauled
                              '89L "Muttstiva," now a storage bin, future trailer project

                              Comment

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