Squeak and Whine on engine

[hawkdoc60]

i am figuring if it is the oil pump,
you may want to look at the crankshaft main bearings too

the pump is NOT submerged, it has a pickup that is submerged, but the oil pump gear itself mearly has oil running through it. most likely what the issue is side loading. the outer ring of the pump is offset to the centerline of the crank, and if for some reason, that rings outer surface runs dry, you can have it eat into the pump housing creating a gap between the teeth that can result in noise. i'll have to see if i have any pics of the oil pump when it was apart to illustrate.

i had a noise of the same sound coming from my bottom pulley. i had the timing belt changed by this one mechanic (mistake) then it started to make the sound .i took it to another mechanic he pulled the cover and noticed the spacer was not trued. so it was rubbing against the belt. he took it apart trued the spacer that was last year .no more noise.hope this helps. joey g

I am going to look at these real good, too. I was wondering if there might also be an issue with the bottom pulley of the timing belt, since I could not see it that well from up top. I am afraid that I will be throwing money at a problem without fixing it, so therefore, I want to be absolutely sure before I change an expensive component like an oil pump.

[yutz]

oil pump

i knew my oil pump was shot ,when i changed the oil and saw no oil in the filter.it did not make any squeels except on start up it sounded like a rattle or a bunch of marbles.so while i was there i changed the belt,water pump,tensioner,asnd of course the pump.then the squeel appeared.the rest of the story you know. joey g. p.s. the first time i changed the timing belt was when it started to squeel we took it apart and saw the belt was worn out on certain areas on the flat side. it was grabbing.changed it then the oil pump went much later down the road.

[econoaddict]

^^^ wow! I've never heard an oil pump do that before! Great hunting! Well, Carl, looks like you might have your answer.

Seems to be common problems around here, I know of 3 personally that are making noise. (I own 2 of them)

My tiva still had great oil pressure and volume, I quit driving it before any other issues popped up.

I tossed the old pump in the washer today when I left the shop, gonna try to get time to take it apart tomorrow and see what was making the noise.

[FB71]

I am going to look at these real good, too. I was wondering if there might also be an issue with the bottom pulley of the timing belt, since I could not see it that well from up top. I am afraid that I will be throwing money at a problem without fixing it, so therefore, I want to be absolutely sure before I change an expensive component like an oil pump.

If/when you decide to remove the pump for inspection/replacement, you'll need to remove the oilpan to accomplish that. While you're in there, as suggested, pull the front main cap, and look at both halves of the bearing shell, and the crank main journal. That may shed some additional light on the situation.

[econoaddict]

I'm also very surprised that it would be the oil pump. The front main bearing would be more likely.

Actually if the main bearing was making the noise I am hearing the engine would be froze up by now.

The squeaking usually comes from the "sides" of the gear inside the oil pump.

Trust me I really didn't want the pump to be the reason for the sqeak, had to special order it in then it did not have a gasket for it in the box, now ordered that, once again special order, not to mention I had to find all the part numbers as the kiddies at the parts house have no idea how to open a paper catalog let alone read it.

Hopefully if everything falls in place it will be together before this weekend.

[FB71]

Actually if the main bearing was making the noise I am hearing the engine would be froze up by now.

The squeaking usually comes from the "sides" of the gear inside the oil pump.

Trust me I really didn't want the pump to be the reason for the sqeak, had to special order it in then it did not have a gasket for it in the box, now ordered that, once again special order, not to mention I had to find all the part numbers as the kiddies at the parts house have no idea how to open a paper catalog let alone read it.

Hopefully if everything falls in place it will be together before this weekend.

hmmm... well, I would also check the thrust washers on the crank, as that may be the source of the side-loading.

[FestYboy]

I knew someone would pick up on that...I said....



If it was not flooded with oil....the engine would be trash by now.

leave it to festyboy to call me out!

sorry Joe... just trying to be as specific as possible.

not to start anything, but have i gotten under peoples collers lately?

[hawkdoc60]

but have i gotten under peoples collers lately?

I personally do not believe so. It seems you are giving good answers to me.

BTW, when are we hitting the pull-a-part? LOL

[econoaddict]

hmmm... well, I would also check the thrust washers on the crank, as that may be the source of the side-loading.

The crankshaft has very little if any "thrust" movement.
What washers?? Have rebuilt a few of the B3's and never ran into crankshaft thrust washers.

In response to PM's I have received I am not going to pull my engine and turn this into an expensive non needed rebuild. The engine runs great, NO I repeat NO bearing, rod, piston or valve train noise at all, NONE. The oil pressure is great as is the volume. The pump is noisy thats it.
The magnetic drain plug on the oil pan is clean, no my engine is not full of metal as a few have told me that have never even seen my car in person.
The guys sending the PM's are crazy, you have never seen the car in person or met me and you are telling me exactly what is wrong and what it looks like inside the engine, honestly can this be justified?? absolutely not. If I didn't know any better and followed the advise being sent this would cost me ALOT of money.

[hawkdoc60]

I have to add that there is no evidence of oil pressure or oil volume problems, either.

[FB71]

The crankshaft has very little if any "thrust" movement.
What washers?? Have rebuilt a few of the B3's and never ran into crankshaft thrust washers.

wow, seriously? Not trying to start a flame war or anything, but if you actually have rebuilt any engine, you would know about the thrust washers (primarily asian engines) or the thrust bearing (primarily domestic engines).

Its been awhile since I've been in the bottom of a B3, but IIRC, the thrust washer set is either on #3 main (center, between cylinders 2 and 3), or #4 main (between cylinders 3 and 4). Typically, the thrust bearing/washer is one main position in from the rear-most main, so my expectation is #4 main.

There's only one way to properly check thrust washer clearance / crankshaft endplay. Remove the pan, and loosen the trans bolts about 1/4". Remove the timing belt and crank pulley. Place a dial indicator on the crank snout, gently pry the crank to the rear of the block with a short prybar (1 foot or shorter), and zero-out the dial indicator while prying. Now pry the crank the opposite direction, towards the front of the block. If the movement is greater than 0.002"-0.003", the thrust washers are worn out. Replacement of the washers requires removal of the crank, because they cannot be rotated out like a bearing shell.

[FB71]

I have to add that there is no evidence of oil pressure or oil volume problems, either.

I wouldn't suspect either of those issues, as these pumps are pretty tough. However, running a pump with excessive side loading (if that is the problem) will gradually cause the clearances inside the pump to become excessive, and you pressure will begin to drop over a few thousand miles. I wouldn't expect to see any debris in the oil, as the wear will be very gradual, and any small particles will be captured by the filter.

[econoaddict]

wow, seriously? Not trying to start a flame war or anything, but if you actually have rebuilt any engine, you would know about the thrust washers (primarily asian engines) or the thrust bearing (primarily domestic engines).

Ok so the machine shops around here call those thrust bearings, half moon shape correct?
Same item just refered to different like the good old ford solenoid/relay thing.
If I have actually rebuilt any engines?, a few other members here can vouch for me as they have actually physically been in my shop.

[FB71]

Ok so the machine shops around here call those thrust bearings, half moon shape correct?
Same item just refered to different like the good old ford solenoid/relay thing.
If I have actually rebuilt any engines?, a few other members here can vouch for me as they have actually physically been in my shop.

half-moon, correct. Like I said, I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I don't really know much about you, which is why I said 'if'. I wasn't trying to imply anything else.

[FestYboy]

I personally do not believe so. It seems you are giving good answers to me.

BTW, when are we hitting the pull-a-part? LOL

i have thurs and fri off and usually use the thurs for the yard and the fri for install of new parts!