Bent valves maybe??

[ventura_ace]

I have a '90 Ford Festiva, stock 1.3L engine, fuel injected, about 150K miles. The car has been running great until . . . .

Did routine oil / filter change recently, but did not run the engine when finished the job. Then, went out of town for a week. Home again, cranked the car. It started and ran for about 5 seconds then quit. Would not restart, just cranks over and over and over.

Checked the following:
All 4 plugs have good healthy spark.
Fuel pressure is about 50 psi just before the fuel rail.
Noid light test shows that injectors are getting electrical signal.

Disconnected air intake from air flow sensor box and sprayed starter fluid directly into intake while cranking. No sign of starting.

Compression check showed 125 psi for all 4 cylinders. Very low, but consistent for all 4. With engine at TDC, found that timing belt was off 2 teeth on the cam drive pulley. It seems that the belt had slipped, even though the tensioner was tight????

I removed the timing belt and inspected. Looks great (was changed about 15K miles back). I put the timing belt back on correctly, and verified that distributor is pointing to #1. Still no start. Rechecked compression -- still at 125 psi, consistent for all 4.

Performed leak down test. Got readings of 0 - 5% for cylinders 1, 2, 3, and about 40% for cylinder 4. It sounds like air escaping into exhaust for cylinders 1, 2, 3, and into the intake for #4.

1) If the timing belt slipped 2 teeth, as it seems, would that likely result in valves hitting pistons? I don't recall hearing any noise as such, and still don't hear any weird noises when turning over the engine.

2) Would the timing belt slip be caused by not starting the engine after changing oil? I'm thinking that maybe the valve train was dry, and the oil pump needed to fill the filter before the oil pressure came up to lube the top end, and maybe the friction was enough to make the belt slip.

3) Anything else I should check before tearing into the engine to look for bent valves?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Alvon

[festivaWES]

I don't see how it could be a bent valve...

What's your gas guage reading? People can drain gas from a festiva in no time via 14mm drain plug. If you have gas to the rail. Have you tried for spark? At the coil, at the plugs?

[zoe60]

It's a non-interference engine. Valves won't bend from bad timing belt.

[ventura_ace]

The gas tank 'should be' about 1/2 full. The gas gauge sending unit is screwed up, so I can't say for sure, but when I disconneceted the fuel line downstream of the filter in the engine bay and turned the key, it pumped out big time, and reads 50 psi when I dead head it into a pressure gauge.

I removed all 4 plugs, connected them to their wires, grounded them to the engine, turned the starter, and watched them all light up like blinking Christmas lights -- very strong spark!

Interesting that the engine is non-interference. Thanks for the info. The Haynes Repair Manual has big warnings about it being an interference design, but I've seen other discrepancies in the Haynes manual also.

I'm still groping for answers. All your feedbacks are very welcome. Any comments on the constant 125 psi compression readings? Or any previous experience with a time belt jumping a couple of teeth. I'm amazed that it could jump, if it did. The belt seemed to be very snug.

Alvon

[sanjeet]

I would check the module inside the distributor before going any further, on my 1992 Festy the ignition module can be removed from inside the distributor, it can be a real pain to diagnose because sometimes the fault is intermittent.

If you have the option of getting a dizzy from a pick your own part wrecker it will be relatively cheap, in NZ dollars about $20, or about $120 from a Ford wrecker.

As explained by previous posters check for a spark and you can pull off a lead and put a screw driver in the lead to check but be careful not to touch, I keep well clear of the HT leads so set up the screw driver shaft so you don't need to hold any part of it including the handle unless it's a high voltage one

[ventura_ace]

Spark seems to be good and strong

Maybe I didn't clarify. I am getting a good healthy spark all the way to the plugs, and all 4 plugs. I checked this by removing the plugs from the head, then reattaching them to the spark plug wires, and grounding them out to the engine block so that I could watch them spark while turning over the engine. I see a bright healthy spark from all 4 plugs. The distributor is correctly timed to point to #1 when the cam pulley is at its mark and the crankshaft is at TDC.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Alvon

[sanjeet]

Ventura the TDC mark on the engine that aligns with the pulley can be confused and when I first brought my 92 carbed the wrong mark had been high-lighted, it meant a 2deg shift from TDC, Its a silly one but it can happen so check that, if as you say the timing belt has slipped I would replace that anyway, I had a similar problem with a Nissan, I replaced the timing belt and I also fitted a new tensioner because the bearing can fail, if you take the tensioner off and rotate it and it feels bumpy when you turn it back and forth it needs replacing.

I know how you feel and its a real bear, its just a process of elimination, I hope my further comments assist

[resuwrecked]

Ok, so you have spark, you have compression and you have fuel. Thats all you need for a running engine. Something is being overlooked.

Spark- Are you sure you have the firing order right? Are you sure you don't have the dist 180* out? Are you sure the cam timing is correct and dist advance set properly?

Compression- 125 is on the low side but engine should still run. I'd say test with a warm engine but can't. Make sure you are testing with all plugs removed and charged battery. Test all 4 then add a little atf or oil to each cylinder and if compression goes up you know its rings and not a valve/cam timing problem.

Fuel- You say you got 50psi dead headed? So this is with no fuel return? A typical fuel injection gauge set has a line in and out, and tested before the fuel pressure regulator should read around 35-40 something with the engine off. Are the plugs wet with fuel after cranking? You said it didn't try to run after spraying into the intake, correct?

[ventura_ace]

OK, we have progress now. It's running again.

BTW, I've been checking TDC with a dial indicator touching the top of the piston (through #1 spark plug hole, so I know for sure when it is at TDC, and it does coincide with the mark and center of the keyway on the crankshaft. Of course, you can't see these marks when the V-belt pulley and timing belt cover is in place, and that's why I use the dial indicator.

What made it start running again???? I really don't know for sure. But, I think that several of the valves had been stuck in the open position (and why that happened, I don't know), and with all the engine cranking, I think that it finally got enough oil in the valve train to free them up and make them close again. Strange!! I've never experienced anything like this before.

I did leak-down tests again, after running the car a while, and now I get normal readings on all 4 cylinders. However, the car had no power until I hit 3000 - 4000 rpm. This was due to the distributor timing being way off. Remember, I had reset the timing belt properly this afternoon, where it had been off by 2 teeth. I'm guessing now that it has been off by 2 teeth ever since the timing belt was changed about 5000 miles ago, and I just never knew it. When I set the timing marks correctly this afternoon, in effect I also retarded the distributor timing by the same amount since the distributor is attached to the end of the camshaft, which made it run with no power. So, I readjusted the distributor timing, and now it runs much better.

I'm not completely sure that I've adjusted the distributor timing correctly, however. My Haynes manual tells me to ground out terminal ST1 in the test connector before setting the distributor timing, but I can't find the test connector. Can anyone tell me where this test connector is for a 1990 fuel injected engine, and does terminal ST1 really have to be grounded as the Haynes Manual says??

This has really been a strange incident.

Alvon

[jglutz]

If all you did was an oil change....most likely something became unpluged or a ground wire became corroded form sitting a week.

Very unlikely that it's engine internals.

[FeistyFesti]

I recently set my timing, so its somewhat fresh in my memory. There are two single wire connectors, one is black and one is white I believe. If you ground the black one, and the car dies, then that is the wrong one. So I believe if you ground the white one, while the car is at NOT (normal operating temp) , then you can advance the timing by turning the disty clockwise (towards the firewall).

[ventura_ace]

If all you did was an oil change....most likely something became unpluged or a ground wire became corroded form sitting a week.

Very unlikely that it's engine internals.

Unlikely, I agree. But it was definitely engine internals, as witnessed by the leak down testing.

Leak down tests read essentially zero for cylinders 1, 2, & 3, and a meager 20% or so on 4. Then, when I finally got it going, the leakdown measured better than 90% on all 4 cylinders. I think that when I tried to start it after a couple of weeks with no oil in the top end, and no oil in the oil filter to allow oil pressure to build up to the top end, some of the valves were not closing, due to lack of lubrication. Then after repeated cranking, it eventually got enought oil up top to free up the valves again. It's the only explanation that I can come up with.

If there's a moral: Always crank up your engine and let it run for a few minutes both before and after changing the oil and filter, to keep the oil pumping system well primed.

Alvon

[CharlieZ]

I had a TDC pulley mark issue. Mine was much farther off than yours. See a picture at http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=21480

Re the leak down test. I'm assuming that when you say 90 percent you don't actually mean 90 percent leakage but 10 percent. 90 percent would be like no valves at all. <grin>

Be interesting to know what the no start/no fire problem was.

[ventura_ace]

I apologize for the terminology. What I'm trying to say is that the valves were aparently stuck in the open position, and leaking like hell, which was causing the no start problem. Eventually, the vavles freed up and started to function normally, with very little leak down (recovering more than 90% of the supply pressure).

I really didn't have an issue with the TDC marks, since I was measuring TDC with a dial indicator looking for the apex of the piston stroke. I put the engine at TDC of the power stroke for each cylinder for taking leak down readings.

I think maybe you are referring to my discovery that the camshaft timing had been set improperly, which is true. It was 2 teeth off, and apparently had been that way for some time, probably for several years -- probably back to the time that the belt was replaced at 90,000 miles. It will be interesting to see what the gas mileage is now with the timing set properly. I was getting just slightly less than 40 mpg previously, when it was set wrong.

BTW, I really appreciate all the feedback and pictures that you guys have supplied. I spent time researching past posts from many of you, also, which was very helpful as well. You can probably tell that I haven't been around this Forum very much, so I apologize if I am covering old territory again. We keep the Fesiva as a reliable car for transportation, and I don't get too involved with working on the car except for when it needs it. In other words, the Festiva is not my hobby, and I wouldn't call myself an enthusiast, but I could see myself getting into it more if I had more time. My main hobby is an old '70 Fiat 124 spider that I have restored, and go on lots of outings with other Fiat enthusiasts. In fact we drove it clear accross the country to a big Fiat gathering in the Poconos in PA last summer, then scurried back West again to Oregon for the annual Western Fiat campout event the very next weekend, before returning home to Ventura, CA. I've driven the Festiva to many a Fiat outing, when I've had the Fiat in bits and pieces on occasion (rebuilding transmission, suspension, etc.). The Festiva is almost as much fun to drive as the Fiat.

Alvon

[resuwrecked]

If your valves were stuck open you would not have gotten anywhere near the compression #'s you say you got.