Signs of a bad master cylinder?

[Evil D]

So i've just replaced a bad section of hard line in my brakes, and we bled the system until my leg about fell off and we couldn't get any more air bubbles...just straight fluid from every corner, and i did go passenger rear/driver rear/passenger front/driver front when bleeding. The brakes still suck big time. They go almost totally to the floor and stop about an inch away, where if i stand on it the car will stop but more often than not it actually locks up (scary as hell in the rain). Also i noticed this morning coming home from work that if i'm sitting on a hill holding the brake i can feel the pedel dropping ever so slowly and if i pump it like a manual brake i get more pedal but it slowly drops. Is this a bad MC?

Also if i can get a 2 for 1 on this thread...another thing wrong with my car is the choke. The PO said "the linkage just isn't hooked up" but i'm thinking the solenoid is burned out and he unhooked it. Whatever, it's a hassle cold starting it but i'm used to that from my Mustang. The question i have is that from tinkering with it i noticed that the car runs much better with the choke plate almost totally closed. Why is that? With it open, the car bucks and studders when coming from a stop like it's cold or bogging down...if i close it then it takes off smooth as silk.

[jriederer]

Yes that is the MC, I had the same problem recently on my Toyota. New MC ran me about $40 and maybe 30 minutes to install it.

[Evil D]

Yeah i think the 'zone has them for around $40. I figured it was, just thought i'd ask just in case. I'm also fairly sure the drums need done..i did just put new pads on the front and the rotors looked ok but i didn't do the drums (honestly i've never done drums at all...on anything...how hard are they?).

[Charlie1717]

Yeah i think the 'zone has them for around $40. I figured it was, just thought i'd ask just in case. I'm also fairly sure the drums need done..i did just put new pads on the front and the rotors looked ok but i didn't do the drums (honestly i've never done drums at all...on anything...how hard are they?).

I'm actually doing my drums right now. I'm far from even being average at auto work. But I'm getting it done so if you have any history in cars you'll be fine.
Best advice is jack up both sides and leave one side complete as a point of reference. Drums are just annoying IMO but not to complicated.

I believe you can run your finger in the drum and as long as there aren't any serious rivets it is still good to use. Hope that helps

Edit: oh and the spindle nuts.. there is a specific one for each side and it is recommended to replace them everytime you take them off. Idk how many people do this but yeah it is only a couple bucks for each.

[doylerl]

Edit: oh and the spindle nuts.. there is a specific one for each side and it is recommended to replace them everytime you take them off. Idk how many people do this but yeah it is only a couple bucks for each.

I don't know if they are the same on the rear as the front, but I just had to redo my wheel bearings, and that darn thing had been pinged 4-5 times!

[Charlie1717]

I don't know if they are the same on the rear as the front, but I just had to redo my wheel bearings, and that darn thing had been pinged 4-5 times!

haha dang!

Oh also, the passenger side rear is threaded backwards So lefty tighty, Righty loosey

[Evil D]

Well, swapped the MC with the new one...tried to bleed it, not getting any fluid. Checked the fluid in the reservoir and it doesn't move when you press the pedal, and now the pedal is sticking about 1/3 of the way down causing my tail lights to stay on.

I'm about to give this car the BFH treatment and push it off a cliff. Any ideas? I've changed MC's 100 times on Mustangs and never seen anything like this...what have i done wrong?

[Charlie1717]

Your symptoms sound very similar to what I was experiencing. I replaced both Wheel cylinders and brake shoes and one drum + the spindle nuts
After replacing all that I got the pressure back and all is good.
I don't know if this helps anything at all but just what I did today ha

[Pocket_Rocket]

Did you bench bleed your new MC before installing it?

[JohnGunn]

I don't think this would explain the problem you are having with your new MC, but the wheel order you gave for bleeding is incorrect. What you did would be right for a single circuit system, but the Festiva has two circuits. The correct sequence is right rear, left front, left rear, right front.

It seems as if your new master cylinder isn't working. If the lines are full from the last time you bled them, then, even if the master cylinder is only pushing air, you would expect the pressure of that air would be sufficient to move some fluid out at the wheels.

This is what I would do.
1. Fill the reservoir and keep it above the min mark.
2. Disconnect the front line.
3. Put you finger loosely over the open hole and have you assistant slowly press the pedal to the floor.
4. Allow fluid and/or air to come out until the pedal gets to the floor.
5. Seal the hole with your finger and have the assistant slowly release the pedal.
6. Do this several times until nothing but fluid comes out.
7. Quickly reconnect that line.
8. If you get this far you will have bled that circuit of the MC.
9. Repeat for the other line.
10. Then go to the wheels and bleed them. (Bleed enough out so that any air introduced into the lines from the above steps will be bled out.)
11. If your new master cylinder doesn't allow you to follow this procedure take it back and get another one.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[Evil D]

I don't think i bench bleed it properly or adequately. I'll give this another shot and get back with eveyone. I really appreciate the help

[Evil D]

Apparently i suck at bench bleeding...i did it over and spent a HOUR bleeding the brakes (my girlfriend's legs are gonna be sore..lol) and all is good now.

Now just need to fix the shifter bushings and it'll be a decent driver.

[Mike McKown]

Well, swapped the MC with the new one...tried to bleed it, not getting any fluid. Checked the fluid in the reservoir and it doesn't move when you press the pedal, and now the pedal is sticking about 1/3 of the way down causing my tail lights to stay on.

I'm about to give this car the BFH treatment and push it off a cliff. Any ideas? I've changed MC's 100 times on Mustangs and never seen anything like this...what have i done wrong?

Did you bench bleed the master cylinder before you put it back on?

For some reason, I've found it helpful on a Festiva to crack the lines at the distribution block on the firewall and let the fluid gravity bleed to there before doing the pedal pump method.

Also, if your brake pedal is not coming ALL THE WAY BACK, it could be holding the master cylinder piston from uncovering the compensating port in the cylinder bore. If this happens, you get no fluid for the next pedal stroke.

Don't push the car over a cliff, just lash it to a raft and shove it out in the Ohio River. I'll catch it a couple days later downstream here.

[MTec007]

Don't push the car over a cliff, just lash it to a raft and shove it out in the Ohio River. I'll catch it a couple days later downstream here.

if you miss, ill catch it.

[Evil D]

LOL that's hilarious. I can see a Festiva floating down stream. One of those 200lb catfish that are supposedly in there would probably eat it.

I just didn't bench bleed the MC right. Once i went back to square one and redid that, it was all good except for all the bleeding we had to do after wards. I'm guessing that from not bench bleeding it properly to begin with, i forced a lot of air in the hard lines when trying to bleed it the first time.

Now i think i need to do the rear drums, and probably everything else back there from the wheel cylinders to the bearings and definitely the ebrake. For now though it's drivable and stops pretty good so i'm happy.