Help. My New Aspire only holds 3 quarts of oil.

[JohnGunn]

Thanks, Tom. I have so little experience with Aspires I find myself in dire need of solid information.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[TominMO]

Changing the oil later today. I'll keep you posted.

[Safety Guy]

John, Tom will probably give you really good info, but I just wanted to say that I've always changed my oil after driving the front up on ramps. Then, just like Tom does, I put in about 3 to 3.5 quarts and back it down to check later after it all settles into the lower engine area. My biggest problem is reading the oil levels right after an oil change. The dipsticks are often quite hard to read with such clear, clean fresh oil!

So I've never run into this problem, but I've always had Festivas, not Aspires.

Good luck on solving the mystery!

Karl

[TominMO]

It took 3.5 quarts to the full mark. The owner's manual sez 3.6 tho.

[JohnGunn]

Huh I used M1 HM 10w30 this morning. Also almost 1/2 quart sets up in the valve area... might be a little more. You would of thought that they would of put that in the equation. The dipstick tube could be pushed in to far. I had to replace one on the 91 Festiva engine I put in the 94 Aspire. The old broke tube broke right at the engine block.. when I put the new one I just used it to knock the old one thru to the oil pan. So there's nothing stopping it.

I've managed to establish that a considerable amount of oil is held in the head after the engine is turned off. From my tests, it takes a full day or two for the level to completely rise as high as it will go. You mentioned that "almost 1/2 quart sets up in the valve area". I'd be interested in knowing how you discovered this. Do you believe this is true of all B3 engines? If you wait long enough after turning the engine off, would that 1/2 quart of oil gradually find its way back to the sump? I can't believe this is the way things were designed to be.

[Zanzer]

There is an area in the head under the camshaft that looks like it would hold a pretty good amount of oil. Also, there are many small crevices around the valve spring seats that hold oil as well. I could see all of these together retaining a fair amount in the head and it would take the oil held between the cam journals a while to seep past the cam and back down into the pan.

Here's a couple pics of a B6 I've been working on but it's the exact same design as a B3. Notice the areas between cam bearing journals and all the little pockets around the spring seats. Also notice the cast in webbing of the head that would only let oil drain to certain areas over time and few areas where the cam journal towers are cast won't let it drain back at all.

[JohnGunn]

Well, I think I've discovered where the extra oil is hiding when I change my oil.

After allowing the car to rest for a couple of days, I measured and recorded the level on the dipstick, measured in mm from the lower end of the stick. Then I ran the engine for a few minutes, turned it off, and began to check the level over an extended period of time. The results indicate that the missing oil is not in the pan, but in the head. My guess is that the drain holes are to varying degrees clogged, which results in something less than a straight line when the levels are graphed against time.

Here is a spread sheet and graph which shows the results of one of the three tests I conducted.

These results suggest that some of the holes must be open while others are clogged to the point that it takes days for them to stop dripping oil through to the sump.

When I first discovered my car might have been run for years with too much oil in it, I did some research on the Internet. The major problem mentioned was the possibility of having so much oil that the turning crankshaft would beat it into a foam which the oil pump would not be able to pick up easily.

Since my extra oil ends up in the head, I don't think that could have happened. But I do see a real possibility of oil being pumped up to the head faster than it can drain back into the pan. In that event, oil will accumulate in the head until the level in the pan falls so low that it reaches the level of the pickup pipe that feeds the pump. At that point the flow of oil to the head will slow down as the pump begins to suck some air along with oil. Eventually the flow will stabalize at exactly the flow rate of oil down through the head drain holes.

It seems to me that could result in a serious drop in engine oil pressure. I have bought this Harbor Freight oil pressure gauge which I'll install in the next few days. Until then I'll not be driving the car.

I welcome all comments on this and your suggestions of what I might do to open up those drain holes.

[Zanzer]

Typically pumping the sump dry only happens with high volume oil pumps ran at high RPM. I would think if this were a problem you'd see the oil light flashing a lot because it will kick on when the level drops to a quart or less. Also, IIRC the B3's have a baffle built into the pan which would help with cavitation from the crank.

The oil drain holes in the head are pretty easy to check. You can remove the valve cover and shine a flashlight in them. They run directly back to the pan with the smallest portion being in the head itself. They widen out considerably in the block. If they have buildup I think you could use a shotgun barrel cleaning brush or small bottle brush to clean them out.

There are only 2 holes, 1 on each end of the head on the exhaust side. You can see one of them in the lower right hand portion of the second pic I posted.

[JohnGunn]

There is an area in the head under the camshaft that looks like it would hold a pretty good amount of oil. Also, there are many small crevices around the valve spring seats that hold oil as well. I could see all of these together retaining a fair amount in the head and it would take the oil held between the cam journals a while to seep past the cam and back down into the pan.

Here's a couple pics of a B6 I've been working on but it's the exact same design as a B3. Notice the areas between cam bearing journals and all the little pockets around the spring seats. Also notice the cast in webbing of the head that would only let oil drain to certain areas over time and few areas where the cam journal towers are cast won't let it drain back at all.

I really appreciate your quick response, Zanzer. I've only looked at the top of a B3 head once, when I replaced the valve cover gasket on my 1990 Festiva. It's been several years, so the image is not fresh in my mind, but I don't remember noticing much, if any, oil standing when I removed the valve cover. Furthermore, I can't identify from the pictures the places where oil might stand without draining because I can't see clearly the different levels and how they might be connected for drainage. In fact, I don't even know where the drain holes are located. I think I see one in the lower right corner of the second picture.
and maybe another just above the valve guide, above it and to the left. Or is that just a shadow?

I think what would help me most would be a clear picture from above that shows all the drainage holes. Would that be possible?

Thanks for your time.

[Zanzer]

I circled one of the drain holes in this pic. The other is in the same location on the other end of the head. Hope this helps




I'm rebuilding a B3 head right now so I'll try to get you some better pics of drainage holes and such.

[JohnGunn]

Typically pumping the sump dry only happens with high volume oil pumps ran at high RPM. I would think if this were a problem you'd see the oil light flashing a lot because it will kick on when the level drops to a quart or less. Also, IIRC the B3's have a baffle built into the pan which would help with cavitation from the crank.

The oil drain holes in the head are pretty easy to check. You can remove the valve cover and shine a flashlight in them. They run directly back to the pan with the smallest portion being in the head itself. They widen out considerably in the block. If they have buildup I think you could use a shotgun barrel cleaning brush or small bottle brush to clean them out.

There are only 2 holes, 1 on each end of the head on the exhaust side. You can see one of them in the lower right hand portion of the second pic I posted.

Thanks again, Zanzer. So, only two holes. I now, at least, know what I'm dealing with. So large that it is difficult for me to imagine how they could come to be clogged. Hard to think of anything loose inside an engine large enough stick in one of them.

In the 10 months I've owned the car the oil light has never come on while the engine was running. Do you think any useful information could be gained by installing the pressure tester I bought?

[Zanzer]

Yup, just the 2 holes. I always trust a mechanical oil pressure gauge over the light any day. I keep one in my tool box with a fitting that screws into the block to check oil pressure on engines that I think the pump pressure may be under suspicion. The light will only tell you if you're low on oil [or loss of pressure] (and it's setting is too low IMO), it won't tell you how much pressure the pump is pushing. Also, many times if the light does come on.... it's already too late unless you shut the engine down immediately. Although I have found the B series engines to be a little more forgiving in this area

[Zanzer]

Hey John, told you bit of wrong info a while ago (that's what I get for staying up all night). Anyway, there's actually 4 drainage holes in the head. The 2 I told you about before and 2 more.

So, here are the locations of all of them. You have 2 the located on the intake and exhaust side of #4 cylinder, 1 at the intake side of #3 (kind of hidden), and 1 on the exhaust side of #1 cylinder.

I'll try to get a pic up for you later. I'm out in the shop cleaning on a B3 head and noticed the 2 extra holes

[JohnGunn]

Hey John, told you bit of wrong info a while ago (that's what I get for staying up all night). Anyway, there's actually 4 drainage holes in the head. The 2 I told you about before and 2 more.

So, here are the locations of all of them. You have 2 the located on the intake and exhaust side of #4 cylinder, 1 at the intake side of #3 (kind of hidden), and 1 on the exhaust side of #1 cylinder.

I'll try to get a pic up for you later. I'm out in the shop cleaning on a B3 head and noticed the 2 extra holes

Thanks, again, again. I'm glad to hear there are more than two. With one drain hole you would expect a pretty straight, line graph, thinking a single hole would have a single drain rate. Two could give two different drain rates and a line with a single bend in it where the faster hole finishes draining and the second one continues at its slower pace till it finishes. The lines in my graphs are too complex to be caused by only two holes. They deserve more analysis.

One mystery is how there could be zero drainage between 10 and 60 minutes. Then more drainage after that for the next five hours, where drainage stops for another three hours. All three of my tests show flat lines of no drainage at these same times.

My belief is that complex problems need time to reveal their secrets. My theory includes the possibility that when you seriously think about a problem you start a process in your mind that continues even when you stop your conscious efforts at finding a solution, to include, especially, when you are sleeping. Lots of "solutions" come to me when I am half asleep on the way toward waking up.

On the subject of sleep, I also tend to resist sleep, especially if I take any caffeine. On that I can go in overdrive for about three days before I lie down to sleep and realize my mind doesn't know how to stop. Of course, everyone is different. Your mileage may vary.

[Zanzer]

Here's the pics of the drain locations. I couldn't get all the drains to show up in a single pic since some of them are slightly hidden by the casting depending on the angle.

Although there are 5 cam journals I numbered them in reference to the drain's location to the cylinder number, therefore I didn't number the center journal in either of the pics for continuity.

I forgot to snap a more detailed pic of the area under the cam I was talking about, but I'll get you a pic of that when I'm back at the shop tomorrow.