I have a timing problem.

[regularman]

Hi folks, I have not posted on here much at all. I mostly read but I now have a problem that I need to solve.
First some history. The festiva is the wife's car. I bought it for her for Christmas in 1993, its a 1991 model GL and was 18 months old when we got it and had 60k miles on it. It was owned by a person who was doing a long commute and then finally moved near their work.
First thing I did was regular maintenance, timing belt etc.
Now the car has 237K on it. Wife is easy on the care as it has the original clutch and no big replacements. I change the oil every 3-5k miles and have always done that. Doesn't use any oil now except for a couple small leaks. Wife has kept a record of gallons and miles since new. She mostly runs around in town and it has always gotten 40mpg average. I have gotten 50 on trips.
Anyways, my quandary of the moment. Symptoms.
The car has lost it power, and I am certain its to do with the timing.
Checking with a timing light, static timing is correct, but when giving it gas, it only advances for about 1/3-1/2 throttle then starts to retard again.
That is exactly how the car drives, you have plenty of zip for the first bit of pedal then it just dogs. The wife says its been doing this for a while, so I worked with it today and checked a few things. static timing seems to be ok, though here is one odd thing. A few weeks ago when she told me about it. I took the distributor completely apart and cleaned it and put it back together. The car would not run right, the static timing was way advanced and turning the dist all the way back, it was still too high. I turned the little disc inside the dist around and it was better and I could get the static timing set.
I just got another used distributor and tried it untouched and the timing is way advanced again and it is a later kind that does not have the disc.
I am thinking this is a big clue.
Do you think my valve timing (timing belt) might have slipped and this is the whole problem? Is there an easy way to check valve timing without the whole timing belt routine? I like this little car the but this whole timing advance then retard thing is kicking my butt.

[WmWatt]

You don't mention the age of the timing belt. On my '89 its possible to check the condition of the belt by removing the top half of the dust cover.

[JohnGunn]

Do you think my valve timing (timing belt) might have slipped and this is the whole problem? Is there an easy way to check valve timing without the whole timing belt routine? I like this little car the but this whole timing advance then retard thing is kicking my butt.

I'm planning to check my timing belt setting in the next few days. I've prepared a list of steps I will take.

Here they are:

Procedure for Checking Alignment of Timing Belt
1 Set first cylinder to TDC.
1.1 Disconnect coil connector from distributor.
1.2 Remove distributor cap.
1.3 Using starter or pushing car in gear turn engine until rotor points to cylinder #1.
1.4 Turn engine at the crankshaft or push car until pointer is at TDC mark on crankshaft pulley.
2 Remove the filter box and rubber air duct.
3 Remove air conditioner belt.
3.1 Adjustment bolt is 19mm.
3.2 Not much room to turn wrench.
4 Remove alternator belt.
4.1 Loosen water pump pulley bolts.
4.2 Loosen alternator.
4.3 Remove belt.
5 Remove water pump pulley.
5.1 Remove pulley bolts.
5.2 Remove pulley.
6 Remove upper timing belt cover.
6.1 Remove four bolts holding cover.
6.2 Remove cover.
7 Check that crankshaft is still at TDC.
8 Check alignment of marks on camshaft sprocket.

This avoids having to remove the lower timing belt cover. For it to be accurate you must assume that your crankshaft pulley is tightly attached to the crankshaft, with the key firmly in place, and that the TDC mark on the pulley is, therefore, an accurate refection of the position of the pistons attached to the crank.

As far as your apparent power loss, I have always just set the timing at idle with the STI terminal grounded to tell the computer to leave the timing and idle speed alone. For you to follow the changes in advance as the engine accelerates you must be leaving the STI terminal ungrounded. I would expect that, with no load on the engine, the timing should be advanced as the rpm increases. This I would expect to be the work of the computer based on it's reading of rpm from the Crankshaft Position Sensor in the distributor and the air flow measured by the VAF meter.

Is the little disc inside the dist you wrote about the rotor? If so, I've been told it is possible to install it in three different orientations. That's never been a problem for me, as I could usually study it long enough to figure out how it should be installed.

As you can see, my procedure for checking the timing belt position depends on your knowing that the rotor is correctly installed so that it points to the cylinders at the proper times. However, you can use the marks on the camshaft sprocket to tell you when cylinder #1 is at TDC. In that case forget about the initial engine rotation and set the position of the engine after the timing belt cover is removed. Come to think of it, that might actually be an improvement to my procedure. Simpler.

Hope this helps. I'm very interested in what you discover, since my Aspire shows a decided lack of response at high rpm, i.e. no surge when accelerator pedal is depressed.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

P.S. Most people would remove the spark plugs to ease turning the engine. Once I have them set and torqued into place, I really don't want to touch them. Hence the use of the starter to rotate the engine (with power to coil disconnected) or pushing the car while in 5th gear.

[WmWatt]

Always a treat reading John's precise posts. I seem to recall the engine has to be at TDC on the compression stroke rather than the exhaust stroke. Someone else will know. I think the way to tell is the distributor rotor points to the #1 spark plug wire on the compression stroke.

[JohnGunn]

Always a treat reading John's precise posts. I seem to recall the engine has to be at TDC on the compression stroke rather than the exhaust stroke. Someone else will know. I think the way to tell is the distributor rotor points to the #1 spark plug wire on the compression stroke.

Thanks for the kind words, Wm. Normally you would be right, but since regularman expressed some uncertainty about whether he had the rotor in the correct position on the distributor shaft and he wanted to check his timing belt alignment, I thought he could just use the marks on the camshaft sprocket to know when the cylinder #1 was at TDC of the compression stroke. That way he could check both the position of the rotor on the distributor and the timing belt alignment at the same time.

Since the camshaft rotates only one time in cycling through all the cylinders (the crankshaft must rotate twice in that time) there will be no ambiguity about whether the #1 piston is on the compression or exhaust stroke using the position of the camshaft marks.

Still, an interesting problem which I intend to follow.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[regularman]

OK, I solved it today. I just thought I would let y'all know.
I used the pencil in the spark plug hole method and found TDC on #1 cylinder and pulled back the timing belt cover and checked the marks. As I suspected, they were off.
I went through the whole routine and took everything off and checked it with the timing pulley on the mark. I was 4 teeth off at the cam.
I fixed this and it everything is right now. Plenty of power.
Now, thinking things over, here is how all this happened.

I have been changing the timing belt at 60k intervals like clock work.
About a year ago, the car started losing water and I could not find a leak.
I bought a pricey pressure tester hoping this was not a head problem.
At about 9 psi and the engine warm, I found the leak, it was the water pump.
I changed the water pump which included removing the timing belt.
What a PITA changing the water pump was (I had to make a special wrench).
Anyways, the timing belt only had about 25k on it and looked good so I reused it.
car worked fine except that it had a whine, it was the timing belt.
I could not stand the whine and so, changed out this timing belt with a new one.
Mistake #1, I followed the book and it told how to change the belt with "timing not disturbed", which means just changing the belt where things are at and not using the marks.
A cam can jump when under pressure in a blink of an eye. I will always take the extra time and use the marks from now on. This has to be where the teeth got off.
As luck would have it, I was also cleaning and checking the distributor at the same time as putting the new belt on, and when I put it all back together the car would not run.
Instead of thinking it was the belt, I thought it was the distributor and so I reversed the little disc inside the distributor and the car ran like that.
What is interesting is this. There is now a slight loss of power in that first 1/3 of a pedal from how I had it, but the car now has full pickup throughout the rest of the throttle and has the normal feel to it.
For anyone who is playing around with these cars and engines for better fuel economy, this type of valve timing advancement might be of interest.
I'm sure it was getting better mileage in that first 1/3 pedal, but any gain was killed by it dogging down at 1/2 throttle and beyond.
Oh, the belt was nice and tight and so did not slip those teeth and has very low miles on the belt.

[JohnGunn]

car worked fine except that it had a whine, it was the timing belt.
I could not stand the whine and so, changed out this timing belt with a new one.

Great news, regular.

Today, I also checked my timing belt alignment. My camshaft sprocket is one notch retarded. I bought my Aspire about 10 months ago and have been plagued by a high-pitched whine that at high rpm turns into a whistle. Also I have been disappointed with the lack of power and gas mileage lower than I expected.

This makes me wonder if the whine you noticed after installing the water pump might not have been the result of your getting your timing belt off by one notch on the retarded side like mine. When you replaced the timing belt and the whine went away could that not have been the result of going from one notch off to the four off you later discovered, enough of a change to move past the point at which a whine is created? After all, the belt that you assumed was the source of your whine was the same belt that before the water pump change had not whined.

I guess what I'm trying to establish is whether my whine could be caused by the one notch misalignment of my timing belt? What would you think?

Was the timing belt alignment procedure you used after the water pump replacement and after installing the new timing belt the same, i.e. flawed? Also, was your camshaft 4 notches off in the retarded or the advanced direction with relationship to the crankshaft?

Your thoughts on this will be of great value to me.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[kartracer46]

I would give it a new tensioner and spring regularman. Just to be certain it is giving it the proper tension when you release it.

[JohnGunn]

Here is a much improved procedure for checking timing belt alignment.

Procedure for Checking Alignment of Timing Belt

1 Park car on level ground with about 3 or 4 tire rotations of open space in front.
2 Remove the air filter box.
3 Remove air conditioner belt.
__3.1 Loosen idler pulley.
__3.2 Remove belt.
4 Loosen 3 water pump pulley bolts.
5 Remove alternator belt.
__5.1 Loosen alternator.
__5.2 Remove belt.
6 Remove water pump pulley.
__6.1 Remove pulley bolts.
__6.2 Remove pulley.
7 Remove upper timing belt cover.
__7.1 Remove 4 bolts holding cover.
__7.2 Remove cover.
8 Turn engine until camshaft marks are aligned.
__8.1 Place transmission in 5th gear.
__8.2 Release parking brake.
__8.3 Push car forward until camshaft marks line up.
9 Check pointer on crankshaft.
__9.1 If pointer points directly at TDC notch on pulley
____9.1.1 Alignment is correct.
__9.2 If pointer is not directly over the TDC notch.
____9.2.1 Alignment is off.
10 Calculate how many notches off.
__10.1 Push car until crankshaft pointer is at TDC notch.
__10.2 Look at camshaft and count the number of belt notches it is off.
__10.3 If alignment marks on camshaft sprocket are to the left of where they should be.
____10.3.1 The camshaft location is retarded by that number of notches.
__10.4 If marks on the camshaft sprocket are to the right of where they should be.
____10.4.1 The camshaft location is advanced by that number of notches.
11 This would be a good time to take pictures of position of both sprockets for future reference.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA