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91 Festiva GL EFI Stalls while idling or driving

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  • 91 Festiva GL EFI Stalls while idling or driving

    So here is a very abbreviated version of the story of my fiancee's festy. We love her dearly, and she is our only car (we mostly ride bicycles) and over the past month she has gone from utterly reliable to won't stay on for more than 5 minutes at a time.

    It all began about 5 months ago. The car wasn't starting, so we had our favorite mechanic take a look at it. Well, it looks like the fuel pump is not working, so we order one on eBay and have him put it in. In the process of removing the "bad" one, we discover that the "bad" one suddenly works! Should have been a red flag, but I'm kinda ignorant about this stuff, so I told him to go ahead and put the new one in anyway, just to make sure it's not that.

    Month goes by, and it starts doing the same thing. Won't crank, randomly. Take it to another shop, and they say it's the fuel pump. I scratch my head, and protest. The mechanic accuses the cheap fuel pump, and says that a more expensive fuel pump is the way to go, and we won't have any problems. $300 later, we are on our way. Until the very next day. No start. Tow it back to the same shop. They can't find anything wrong. Run it for an hour or so, no issues.

    So, fast forward to about a month ago. It starts stalling out when stopped at stop signs, or when parking. "Huh, that's weird" we say to ourselves. Our fuel gauge is broken, so we assume that we're just running out of gas, and when we fill up, seems to work ok. Now, the tank was never actually empty, mind you, but we chalked it up to the tank being low, and the car being persnickety about that.

    Short fast forward to two weeks ago. Car starts losing power in the middle of driving. While accelerating. Coming to stops. Trying to start. The intervals between stalls shortens to the point where it won't stay on for longer than a minute. We call the first mechanic and he says it's probably electrical and to take it to a shop that does electrical. In the meantime, I go get some Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant and Injector Cleaner. Pour a few servings in the tank, and VOILA! Cranks up! Runs for an hour and half! Drives better than ever! Fiancee drives to work the next day, so proud of me, and it dies pulling into her work parking lot... But it still runs better than before. Will stay on for 20-30 minutes at a time.

    This new shop says it's the fuel pump (ha!), and we say "NO!" They then say it's the fuel pump relay, and we concede that we haven't tried that and that seems logical. $176 later, new relay. Drive it to work. Work. Leaving work, no start. Middle fusible link blown. Replaced that, and it starts. And then immediately shuts off. Call the shop, and they say it's probably because there is an oil leak, and we need to replace the rear main seal, and they keep saying volts when they mean amps, blah blah blah, so I cut my losses and put the festy out of there as fast as I can.

    So here is where I'm at now. Thanks for hanging with me through that long story. The car is back to only staying on for less than 5 minutes since getting it back from the shop. Jumped the fuel pump test connection. Pump works. Crank the car while the test connection is hooked up, and it runs and dies like usual, even though the fuel pump is pumping. Check for any OBD-I codes, nothing. Look at the relay; looks legit. Check out the connector, looks good.

    Any ideas as to what I should be hunting for? I'm going to break out the DMM and start poking around the fuel pump wires and try to read some voltages, and check for weird voltage drops under load. Any other suggestions? Anything I can take a picture of to provide more details? I don't have a way of testing fuel pressure or vacuum, btw, but would be willing to have mechanic 1 come back out and do that, if need be.

    There is another weird thing that I'm not sure if it's related to this problem or not. For a while, when we would first start driving the car after starting it, we would hear a high pitched squeal coming from the passenger-side part of the engine. Had to be pushing the accelerator to get it to squeal, and it would usually only last for 5 seconds or so. Doesn't really do that now, but I wasn't sure if the two things could be related or not.

  • #2
    It could be electrical or it could be fuel. Ok, next time it won't start, pull one of the spark plug wires and have someone crank it. Put end of plug wire close to a ground and see if you have spark. If not, put wire back on and pull coil wire off distr top and do same thing. If you have spark, check cap or rotor. Also, if you have spark, pull hose off gas filter between filter and fuel rail. Put hose into a jar and crank and see if getting gas. If not, pull line before filter and put in far and crank and see if you have gas. It could be filter, or it could be ignition. You need to check each to make sure. Squeal could be alternator belt. Check and see if its worn or tight. If it is stalling while running at idle, it could be the IAC control is stopped up and may need taken off and cleaned out. If you don't have a Haynes Manual, best thing to do would get one also.
    Last edited by milehighbear; 04-12-2012, 03:47 PM.
    Thom-Lifes too short, don't blink
    93 Festiva (Little Red Truck)
    01 F-150 (Big Red Truck)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by milehighbear View Post
      It could be electrical or it could be fuel. Ok, next time it won't start, pull one of the spark plug wires and have someone crank it. Put end of plug wire close to a ground and see if you have spark. If not, put wire back on and pull coil wire off distr top and do same thing. If you have spark, check cap or rotor. Also, if you have spark, pull hose off gas filter between filter and fuel rail. Put hose into a jar and crank and see if getting gas. If not, pull line before filter and put in far and crank and see if you have gas. It could be filter, or it could be ignition. You need to check each to make sure. Squeal could be alternator belt. Check and see if its worn or tight. If it is stalling while running at idle, it could be the IAC control is stopped up and may need taken off and cleaned out. If you don't have a Haynes Manual, best thing to do would get one also.
      At this point, it starts every time I turn the key, it just doesn't want to stay on for very long... I just metered the incoming voltage and it's reading a steady 13.20 at idle. And as I am typing this, having done nothing but stick my meter leads in the connector, it has been on and running for ten minutes... We will see how long it lasts. Could this be just a crappy connection going into the fuel pump?! Could shoving the leads in next to the wires have fixed the issue?! Stay tuned...

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      • #4
        look at your VAF connection... look for corrosion. there is an internal switch in the VAF that controls the fuel pump relay. also look at your air tube between the VAF and throttle. if you see any cracks, seal them. also look inside your dizzy for any signs of oil (if you see any, hose it down with brake clean).
        Trees aren't kind to me...

        currently: 2 88Ls (Scrappy and Jersey), 88LX, 90L(Pepe), 91L, 91GL (Skippy) 93 GL Sport (the Mighty Favakk), 94 (Bruce) & 95 Aspire SEs, 97 Aspire (The Joker),
        94 Justy 4WD, 87 Fiero GT, plus 2 parts cars. That's my fleet.

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        • #5
          Yup, definitely sounds vaf related.

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          • #6
            It's not VAF related because he jumped the self-test connector which bypasses the VAF and it still died. He needs to diagnose the ign after it dies as in post #2.

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            • #7
              You guys are good. GeorgeB is right, bypassed the vaf and it still dies. Just drove it to the gas station, filled it up, and it died while trying to pull out of the station. Put my meter on the pump and cranked. ~10V or so, and no start. Let it relax for a second, tried again, nothing. Attempt 5, cranked up and is still running. Right now, reading 13.15V on the pump and it's running steady... So very intermittent! Might see if I can get someone to watch the meter while I drive around see what that gets me.

              Thanks everyone for the fast and friendly help!!

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              • #8
                That only means the fuel pump control in the vaf isn't the problem. Symptoms like this are often vaf related. If its not reading airflow correctly. It can cause these issues.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by koRnhead View Post
                  That only means the fuel pump control in the vaf isn't the problem. Symptoms like this are often vaf related. If its not reading airflow correctly. It can cause these issues.
                  Awesome. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be back, staring at it, tomorrow morning and let you guys know what I find out. I remember finding a thread somewhere about how to test the VAF.

                  Thanks again!

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                  • #10
                    true that. another thing to look for is the grounds for the pump (could be intermitant) though i doubt thats an issue.

                    seeing 10v while cranking is normal (most of the power is going to the starter and that's pulling the battery down to 10ish volts).

                    try this just for giggles: remove the column surround and wiggle test the ignition switch while the car is running. also wiggle test the VAF harness and ignition harness.
                    Trees aren't kind to me...

                    currently: 2 88Ls (Scrappy and Jersey), 88LX, 90L(Pepe), 91L, 91GL (Skippy) 93 GL Sport (the Mighty Favakk), 94 (Bruce) & 95 Aspire SEs, 97 Aspire (The Joker),
                    94 Justy 4WD, 87 Fiero GT, plus 2 parts cars. That's my fleet.

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                    • #11
                      Keep the self-test jumper in there until you find the problem. I don't think the airflow meter in the VAF will cause it to die. Also the 10V reading at the pump was because it was during cranking. With the jumper in there, listen for pump after it dies (key on). No pump would mean bad fuel pump relay or wiring. Pump running would indicate ignition issue.

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                      • #12
                        Um really?? Engines run on air, spark, and fuel......take one away and the motor wont run. If his vaf is acting up and stops sending the airflow signal. The computer will pull fuel. Hence making it stall.....

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FestYboy View Post
                          true that. another thing to look for is the grounds for the pump (could be intermitant) though i doubt thats an issue.

                          seeing 10v while cranking is normal (most of the power is going to the starter and that's pulling the battery down to 10ish volts).

                          try this just for giggles: remove the column surround and wiggle test the ignition switch while the car is running. also wiggle test the VAF harness and ignition harness.
                          The ground (black wire) at the pump seems solid.

                          I also figured the 3 volt drop was normal, but thought it was worth mentioning. Is it insightful to note that even with the proper voltage reaching the pump, it was not starting? Does that rule anything out? It did eventually start up, and drove back to work, and continued to run at idle for another 20 minutes until I turned it off...

                          My boss also thought to wiggle the key in the ignition while the car was running, but I will be more thorough and take off the surround tomorrow morning and try again. And the VAF harness (the wiring attached to the top of the VAF, yeah?).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by georgeb View Post
                            Keep the self-test jumper in there until you find the problem. I don't think the airflow meter in the VAF will cause it to die. Also the 10V reading at the pump was because it was during cranking. With the jumper in there, listen for pump after it dies (key on). No pump would mean bad fuel pump relay or wiring. Pump running would indicate ignition issue.
                            Did this, and the pump was still pumping, even after it died. I remember thinking, "What is that strange sound?" and realized it was the pump. Ha! I have a new pump and new relay, so I am reasonably (although not completely) certain it's neither of those things, but would not rule out dirty contacts or suspect wiring.

                            I'm still pretty ignorant about mechanics, so I can't fathom how an ignition problem shows up after the car has started. So if anyone can either enlighten me or point me to some resources, that'd be awesome! I like learningz.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by koRnhead View Post
                              Um really?? Engines run on air, spark, and fuel......take one away and the motor wont run. If his vaf is acting up and stops sending the airflow signal. The computer will pull fuel. Hence making it stall.....
                              I will absolutely test all I can on the VAF, as my own limited searching on the forum had me sniffing up this same path before I began. I'll post my results tomorrow. Would it be helpful to have pictures or video of the car working and/or dying?

                              Thanks again, guys. This is why I love the internet. What an awesome community of people...

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