Sparks from alternator wont start unless jumped to engine fuse

[niccage]

Hi all,

was wondering what you all thought about this one.

I foolishly failed to d/c the battery when i wanted to further tension the alternator drive belt. The car is a 99 Ford festiva AKA 97 Ford Aspire (USA Aspire / Australia Festiva).

So without d/c the battery, i grabbed a long steel pipe similar to a pry bar, and i pushed the alternator back whilst doing up the alternator tensioning bolt with my other hand.

Suddenly the pry bar aka steel pipe slipped and came in to some contact with the wiring inside the alternator.. i could see sparks fly and then after that, no power at all and doesnt want to start.

Nothing no dash lights no power.

I grabbed a Power Force tester and jumped a line from the battery to the "engine" fuse, then it does start and electricals come on. Once started, i disconnect the Power Force tester and it stays on, but as soon as i switch it off, back to square one, wont start etc. I took another 10amp fuse from the same bank and put it inside the engine fuse slot and removed the existing and no change, still same.

I havent had a chance to check wiring yet as got dark will do tomorrow.

What does everyone here think?

Cheers.
Jase

[Damkid]

Sparks from alternator wont start unless jumped to engine fuse

I say you blew a fuse, just a matter of which one, check everyone even if it doesn't seem related

[georgeb]

The MAIN fuse link is the most likely to burn when you short the alternator.

[niccage]

Today I tried replacing the "engine" fuse to no avail, i put a new fuse in there and it blows straight away and doesn't start up. Ah there's an update, now it is simply cranking over and not starting. It sounds like a good healthy crank over but not staying on as soon as i release the key. Seems i should replace the alternator? Interestingly, when i jump a line to the "engine" fuse, and attempt to crank it, it'll crank but not start, and other electricals work, but the radio doesn't work.. not even the LCD reading at the front to ask for a code or something. Could my ECU computer control unit have been fried? The wiring about the alternator seems normal. Though, i did notice that that plastic casing is destroyed, cranked completely and lying on the ground. That's the plastic casing for where the cable plugs in to the alternator. I think i would have been quite a powerful spark to destroy the plastic casing. Wondering if the ECU could prevent the electricals from having any power inside until i jump the "engine fuse" fuse. Or as you said, perhaps i should check the wiring to the main fuse link and re-wire?

[FestYboy]

ok, you sir have a dead short to ground, that's why the main fuse pops immediately. DO NOT use a larger fuse or other non-fused wire to "test" with, more damage will result. this issue needs to be approched with a DVOM (multi meter). you have to find AND fix the short first before trying to apply power to anything.

[niccage]

100_1507.jpg100_1514.jpgThanks for that. I dont have a voltmeter or multimeter not sure if this Power Probe III also has that function. So I'll be looking for a dead short to ground, so basically i was inspecting wiring today to see which wiring about looked dodgy. All of the wiring i saw looks good thus i would assume there is good connectivity. If the cable that connects to the alternator had the plastic shielding broken from it during the sparking, would the lack of the plastic insulator at the connection point to the alternator cause that wire to be a dead short to ground? Even though the sparks were at the alternator, does that mean the dead short has to be on wiring close or near the alternator, or could it be anywhere? I've enclosed the pic of the alternator connection point. I disconnected the alternator completely and still the same. By the way, there's no spark at the battery terminals. You know when you connect your cables to your battery, you can feel and sometimes see a spark? Well, since the alternator sparking, there's also no more sparks when you connect either or both the positive and negative battery terminals. Nonetheless, when i connect the Power Probe III to the battery terminals together with the car battery terminals connected, the Power Probe III will deliver power to the electricals at the simple touching of the device's tip in to the fuse and you get power. However i can't get normal power like before (without using the Power Probe), inside the car it's completely dead no dash lights, nothing. However, the headlights do work (the headlight switch, without the Power Probe that is, the headlights work on their own). Could it be possible I fried the ECM and if so, would it behave like this, etc, no power? Will get an auto electrician during the week to find the dead short to ground. Is it easy to find if i get a multi meter?

[Movin]

Completely disconnect the alt , replace the blown fuse, if it doesn't blow see if it will start.
Considering your previous good fortune I would tape the wire ends as you disconnect !

Also heed the above advise!

[FestYboy]

killing an ECU will not keep you from having power to the interior or from cranking the engine. the broken plastic insulator can be a short to ground (in that instance: the case of the alt is ground). the power probe III DOES have a volt meter built in and it will tell you if you're touching power or ground BEFORE activating the switch (along with seperate tones for each). i suggest you read the manual that came with it. sparks at the battery will only occur if there's something in the circuit that will draw current. removing the main fuse elliminates most of the car.

[niccage]

Update, whilst at work today, my dad was kind enough to come to my house and meet one of the mobile repair guys to have a look at it. He said the 80amp fuse in the engine bay fuse box has been killed. He tested the other fuses in that box they are fine, just the 80amps one is kaputt. My father went to the local shop and bought another 80amps fuse and replaced it and called the repair guy back as he asked dad to ring back when he gets that fuse. The repair guy attended and did more tracing and stated i should replace the distributor as well. I will also replace the alternator, that's all for next weekend. Just a question guys, since that plastic insulation was part of the wire that runs to the alternator and not the alternator itself, is it acceptable if i go to a wrecking yard and grab and alternator and cut the same wire with the connector then on my Festiva, cut in to the alternator connect wire and splice to the wire with the plastic connector on it that i get from the wrecking yard car?

[FestYboy]

that's acceptable, provided that your splice is soldered and weatherproofed. BWT that 80A fuse is you MAIN, whatever other fuse was blowing instantly needs to be attanded to as well before trying to run the vehicle.

[niccage]

Well it's sitting in the backyard till next Saturday, so will post an update. Thanks Festy and to everyone else who contributed.

[Pu241]

Didn't realize the AUS Festiva had 80 A main fuse.

[niccage]

Yeah, they kept running the Festiva name here all up to the end of the year 2000 when production finally ceased. Same as the US except the Aspire name was used there, exactly same car as the festiva. Though maybe the engine options differed. The 3 door versions here are all 1.3 litre engines but the 4 door versions are all 1.5 litres. My mother's old one is a 99 Festiva 4 door thus 1.5 litre, we keep it as a spare car if anyone needs it, and since i had a repair shop change the original (asbestos) brake shoes/pads/the clutch friction disc to non-asbestos versions, i've worked on it since.

[niccage]

Update: 17 Nov 2012.

This morning was an early start, replaced the distributor, replaced the alternator, distributor was 2nd hand from a car from the wreckers but alternator was brand new. Replaced the EGI 10 amp fuse, another that had blown. Good to see all electrics back. 2x loose spark plugs, when i saw why, it had been the stripped threads in the spark plug holes. Got my friend to come over whose a heli coil expert, he re-built the thread in the 2x spark plug holes without having to remove the cylinder head. So all good now, starts up and run very well, i've learnt my lesson here. In some ways, it's great that these things happen as it expands our knowledge and experience.