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Can't turn over after sitting a few months (1986 323 B6 SOHC)

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  • Can't turn over after sitting a few months (1986 323 B6 SOHC)

    So I'm hopefully well on my way to getting my little 1986 323 back up and running. I used to fire it up every weekend or so starting in May when I took the plates off it. Moved into a condo without parking options, so I figured once every week or two so would be fine. Aside from existing unrelated oil issues I needed more time to fix, all systems go... until about two weeks ago.

    Since then, there's seemingly nothing I can do to get this car started. When the manifold gets a healthy dose of starter fluid, the car stutters as if it wants to start but is running on fumes or nearly nothing... but it never gives it enough to actually turn over and start right now. Comes up continually just shy of "catching" as it were.


    I know one shouldn't try to crank for this length of time, but wanted to demonstrate this phenomenon in a video. Quality is garbage, but audio is all that really matters here anyway:


    Battery:


    This is the strongest cranking car I've ever owned... probably the 650CCA unit it came with. Battery terminals are in fair shape without any corrosion and all ground points with the engine/chassis have been lightly sanded/brushed to ensure good contact. It was charged at/above 90% throughout the testing and work today.

    Fuel:


    I did notice the original fuel pump (now 31 years old) wasn't making any noise at all or humming at all when I pulled the back seat, so I've successfully replaced the strainer, pump assembly, and in-bay fuel filter. I can confirm that the pump is receiving 12V through the connector when you try to start the car, it has a nice hum/vibration to it, and that there is definitely some level of pressure making it to the fuel rail. I can't definitively say whether it's sufficient pressure though.

    Fusible links under the hood appear operational. I did manage to pull out the fuel pump relay, and there appeared to be a random 23 Ohms of resistance between two of the prongs... which I think were the left-most ones when looking at the bottom of the relay. It was too hot to keep investigating this aft, but that's my progress in the fuel department. Given they're rather pricey items, I'd prefer to avoid replacing it if it's easily tested.

    Spark:

    I sprayed with contact cleaner and or wire brushed every single connector and terminal prong I could get my hands on. NGK V-Power plugs are clean, gapped properly, and torqued correctly. Leads are great-looking relatively-new NGKs with healthy resistance levels. No signs of moisture, cracks, or corrosion on any part of the cap/rotor/coil/etc. After some Googling, triple-checked the firing order just in case that was a factor. Plugs, when pulled, appear somewhat-wet with a dark-coloured film that's not quite dark enough to be oil. Should have taken a photo or two.

    Air:

    Relatively new cone filter with an RX-7 adapter - unchanged since it was daily driven. No sign of leaks or cracks anywhere on the factory intake pipe and all clamps/hoses fail to reveal any clues.

    Compression:

    Big if here... given my compression hose and gauge have mysteriously vanished. I think I let a friend borrow them a while ago, so this remains a variable I can't yet test. I can't imagine a way it could have blown the head gasket while randomly idling in a parked driveway here and there, but can't yet rule it out. No sign of interaction between coolant and oil, and clearly I can't check the tail pipe for signs of smoke given it won't start.

    ------------

    Thus, at this point, I'm not really sure where to start when I get back to it tomorrow. I have some ideas, but would really appreciate some suggestions first so I don't continue to elongate my wild goose chase needlessly in this weather. Thanks all!
    Last edited by Aaronbrook37; 09-02-2017, 06:22 PM.
    1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

  • #2
    Aaron, have you checked the cam timing? It sounds like you may be off a couple of notches due to the belt jumping. Also can you try another distributor? My Festiva that I bought not running sounded about as you describe. A junkyard distributor did the trick. Out of the hundreds of cars I have flipped I never had one not run due to low compression. Good luck!
    Last edited by Rick the Quick; 09-02-2017, 06:52 PM.
    '88 Festiva LX 5 speed, A/C, Carb, restored $$$ body paint, badly wrecked @ 200k.
    '93 Festiva L, 5 speed, Aqua, bought from the original owner,.Zero rust but very nasty otherwise. Awaits the B6T.
    '91 Festiva L, 5 speed, bought to drive while putting the B6T in the '93. now B6ME powered.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks much, Rick! I think you're on to something with the belt jumping - may well have done so, as I'm not sure if/when it was last replaced. Given how many of the parts on this thing seem to be original (80,000 miles or 130,000 kilometers), I'm inclined to agree. I'll have a go at it - probably needs a replacement anyway (as does the water pump).
      1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

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      • #4
        Usually pull one plug and hold close to block while cranking to see if there's spark. Assume there's an equivalent test for fuel but since my car is carburetted I don't know how to do it with fuel injection. On my car pull fuel hose at carburettor and let it squirt into container while cranking. Good luck.
        Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

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        • #5
          Didn't end up making any more progress this weekend on the cranking/starting issue specifically. Did manage to get the old oil pan off though, which was definitely warped/bent and causing major leaks. Anybody else with insights on whether timing's the right road here based on the information provided? As soon as I get the new oil pan sealed up next weekend, we'll see where to go from there. Gonna order a new compression kit for good measure in the meantime.
          1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

          Comment


          • #6
            So the new oil pan and gasket are in successfully. I've also got a fresh re-manufactured distributor to pop in along with fresh spark plugs and wires. Coil seems to test fine, and still no spark. Curiously, my new distributor has a few minor differences in the pronginess of the ignitor and the vacuum advance module/diaphragm. On my old original (which looks to be remanufactured as well), it has a double-vacuum and a three-prong ignitor thingamajig with the wiring harness to boot. On the fresh distributor, it's a single-vacuum and a two-prong ignitor. Does anybody know if either of these is going to continue to cause a headache at all for me? Assuming it's something entirely different, I suppose the distributor could be a non-issue.

            A few other ideas:

            1. Festivas have fuel inertia switches - I gather my 323 has one as well somewhere in the trunk I could check/reset?

            2. Is there an easy-to-access "park switch" in the automatic transmissions on these cars that might be causing issues?

            3. I suspect my ignition switch is starting to cause issues because it'll continue to crank after you disengage the key and remove it sometimes. The starter appears to have been replaced, but I have every reason to suspect the ignition cylinder/switch is original. Any ideas on whether I'd be able to refurbish this unit myself or I'm stuck getting a new ignition assembly from somewhere?

            Thanks everyone for the continued help and support!
            1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

            Comment


            • #7
              Spray WD-40 into the keyhole in the ignition and work the key in and out to clean the contacts and remove any moisture. Has cleared up problems for myself and others. You mention contact cleaner above. That would probably work too.
              Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

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              • #8
                Great trick! That has solved most of the issues with the moisture/gunk build up in the ignition switch. The key was remarkably filthy every time I pulled it out jimmying the switch to get it cleaned. So that's good.

                Old with the dual vacuum and three-prong igniter is on the left, and the new with the single vacuum and two-prong igniter is on the right.





                Getting pretty annoyed with this... igniters cost nearly as much as I could sell this car for, but clearly ordering the entire distributor is no guarantee of getting the correct unit for my wiring harness.
                1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

                Comment


                • #9
                  If in doubt send the distributor back for the correct one. That would be a good starting point.
                  '88 Festiva LX 5 speed, A/C, Carb, restored $$$ body paint, badly wrecked @ 200k.
                  '93 Festiva L, 5 speed, Aqua, bought from the original owner,.Zero rust but very nasty otherwise. Awaits the B6T.
                  '91 Festiva L, 5 speed, bought to drive while putting the B6T in the '93. now B6ME powered.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The carburetted Festiva has a three prong module, the two close togehter go to the +ive and -ive posts on the coil, the other goes to the computer. Can't make out the letters in the photo but on mine B goes to the +ive post, C goes to the -ive post, the one to the computer is labelled A.

                    I see the module in the distributor on the right (2 prong) has been removed and is not screwed back in. You should have seen dielectric heat transfer paste under the module, same as they put under CPU's on computers. When I replaced mine I bought a small ampule of paste from the local electronics store, enough to do two modules, for one dollar.
                    Last edited by WmWatt; 10-14-2017, 03:38 PM.
                    Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Curious... maybe I should try to score an igniter off a carby Festy then! Makes sense given the vintage that they'd share parts. As for the paste and screws, that was because my mechanic friend and I wanted to see how complicated the igniter assembly was and whether it might be prudent to swap the 3-prong and 2-prong units. Clearly, that won't solve the issue as we can effectively guarantee the igniter is the actual problem. Brand new spark plugs, wires, coil passes with flying colours, and grounds/battery are immaculate. Definitely going to chat with Rockauto and see about swapping this re-man for the correct unit! Thanks guys.
                      1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The igniter/ICM on my carburetted Festiva doesn't look the same as either of the ones in the photo. I tried once to find and ICM at a junk yard which had no Festivas but did have Mazda's, both 323 and GLC if I remember correctly, and none was the same. However the screw holes look about the same as yours so they might fit. The part number on the original Festiva ICM is 8708 and my notes say a new part number is 7X01A. IF you look up the ICM for the Festiva on the Internet it will have a part number and a list of cars which use it. You can also look up the ICM's you have and see on hwich they can be used. Good luck.
                        Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Igniter was definitely the ticket! So, she's up and running. Some videos I recorded for diagnostic purposes:

                          Battery voltage test running at idle. https://www.dropbox.com/s/r1498tfquv...028_081018.mp4

                          Tailpipe rumble/chatter. https://www.dropbox.com/s/triasdmunh...028_081120.mp4

                          After these two, I swapped a coked up O2 sensor for a fresh one and things improved a little.

                          Low transmission fluid and slightly squeaky brakes moving forward and back in the driveway. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7sbl8u8rv8...14324.mp4?dl=0

                          Warm start with chattery low idle. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzxrb1cvyu...15738.mp4?dl=0

                          I'm thinking the timing may still be wrong - I have to plug both vacuum hoses and disconnect the black connector. Thoughts? Thanks all!
                          1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Set the base timing to 10*, thank me later.
                            Trees aren't kind to me...

                            currently: 2 88Ls (Scrappy and Jersey), 88LX, 90L(Pepe), 91L, 91GL (Skippy) 93 GL Sport (the Mighty Favakk), 94 (Bruce) & 95 Aspire SEs, 97 Aspire (The Joker),
                            94 Justy 4WD, 87 Fiero GT, plus 2 parts cars. That's my fleet.

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                            • #15
                              That's roughly where it is now, fortunately. I'll have to pull the cover off and have a look at where we're lined up next weekend. Idle hasn't come up nearly enough to what I'd like it to be at and vacuum gauge flutters at 15-16 inHg where it was once 20-21 inHg solid, so we shall see. Car has 130,000 original kilometers / 80,000 miles and I don't honestly know about the state of the timing belt.
                              1988 Chevy Sprint Turbo 997cc

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