What is it?

[woodturner9]

My 1989 Lplus quit - ran fine on highway, pulled off, stopped at light, stalled, wouldn't restart.

Long story short, the timing belt has slipped, because a part was wrapped around the lower sprocket.

The part is bent up and in pieces, but the one intact piece looks like a segment of a washer like piece. That part is thin, stiff metal, and resembles the shield on a sealed ball bearing. This part fell out when I took off the upper timing belt cover, suggesting it was in the upper part of the timing belt enclosure.

The part wrapped around the lower sprocket seems more flexible, maybe just because it is a bigger piece.

Any guesses what it is? The only ideas I have are either the camshaft seal or the crankshaft/oil pump seal. However, the pieces do not have a "lip" on them like a rear wheel bearing seal, and as shown in the factory manual. The pieces also do not have holes in them, so I don't think it is one of the pulley spacers. Is there a shield or spacer behind the camshaft sprocket?

Thanks.

[Festy46]

The only thing I can think of is possibly a piece of the seal/shield on the tensioner pulley that keeps the timing belt tight.
John

[Kindred]

Re: What is it?

Is there a shield or spacer behind the camshaft sprocket?

Not that I'm aware of. When I replaced my head gasket, the sprocket simply bolts to the cam. The only piece of rubber in that area is the cam seal.

[woodturner9]

The only thing I can think of is possibly a piece of the seal/shield on the tensioner pulley that keeps the timing belt tight. ---

The tensioner appears to be intact. I think the part is too large to be the shield from that bearing. The part appears to have been a thin metal "washer". I can't tell the original diameter, but it appears to have been somewhere between the two sprockets in diameter.

I uploaded a picture to my album on this site (go to my profile) - maybe that will help someone think of something.

Actually, it looks like it would be about the size of the spacers between the crankshaft pulley and sprocket, maybe a little larger. How many of those should there be? There are two that are still on the car. In addition, the part does not appear to have any bolt holes, and there wasn't enough broken material to suggest that the part with the holes disintegrated. But the one intact, unmangled broken piece resembles those spacers. It also has a slight arch in it, like it was sprung into place like a bearing shield. In addition, it has two concentric wear marks on one side.

Anyone have any pictures or a good exploded parts diagram? The one in the factory service manual doesn't show anything that looks like this part.

Thanks for the help!

[Festy46]

The lower half of the part in your picture looks like a really trashed oil seal. If your engine has the "big nose" crankshaft, the seal would be fairly good sized. It's possible the last guy that installed the seal didn't drive it in deep enough and it worked its way out and rubbed on the timing gear until it got thin enough to collapse and fall completely out. It could then get wrapped up in the timing belt. I would check to be sure there is a seal in the oil pump housing.
John

[woodturner9]

oil pump seal?

If your engine has the "big nose" crankshaft, the seal would be fairly good sized. It's possible the last guy that installed the seal didn't drive it in deep enough and it worked its way out and rubbed on the timing gear until it got thin enough to collapse and fall completely out.
------
The engine is a carb B3 original to the car (1989). The seal would be the original, so it has lasted 265,000 miles ;-)

I'm trying to avoid taking off the crankshaft pulley, after all the horror stories I have read on problems. Any advice on doing that, and reassembling it?

The pictures I have found of oil pumps show only a rubber seal (http://www.rockauto.com/ref/BeckArnl...ml?0280362.jpg). Is there a metal seal on the originals?

I have one sort of "intact" piece. It is a small pie shaped segment that is flat, thin steel, shows two concentric wear marks on one side, and has a small "hump" pressed into it. It really does look like a shield from a sealed ball bearing. When I tried to approximate the diameter of the piece by using the larger piece to draw a circle, I get about 6" diameter - basically, the size of the camshaft sprocket. I'm probably not getting an accurate diameter this way, but I wouldn't expect it to be too far off.

The damage to the belt was on the back (engine side), supporting the conclusion that it is a seal or something like that. I have gone over the area and all the parts carefully, looking for any signs of wear, displaced dirt, etc. to support the presence of this part, but have found nothing. The only place I can't see is behind the crankshaft sprocket. Hmm. Guess I will have to pull the sprocket and look.

[Festy46]

I think I know what your bent up piece of metal is. It's the large washer that fits directly against the crankshaft timing gear and helps keep the timing belt from coming off the timing gear. Your timing belt has been rubbing against this washer until it finally wore completely through the washer. At this point the washer got wound up in the timing belt and gear.

Carefully inspect the tensioner pulley. Something caused the timing belt to attempt to come off. I would think either the bearings are getting bad in the pulley and causing it to seize up, or the bolt that holds the pulley is either loose or bent. If you remove the tensioner pulley to inspect it, take careful note of the tensioner spring and rubber boot because it only goes on one way. Don't get it on backwards when you re-install it.

You will have to remove the crankshaft pulley/pulleys to replace the washer. You don't need to remove the crankshaft (large) center bolt, just the 4 small bolts that take a 10mm socket and the 2 little phillips head screws. You can remove the phillips head screws with a phillips head socket and your ratchet. The phillips head socket looks like an ordinary socket with a very short piece of a phillips head screw driver bit sticking out of it.

If you support the passenger side of your engine and then remove the motor mount on that side, you should be able to lower the front of the engine enough to get the pulleys off. If your front crankshaft seal isn't leaking, I would not try to replace it. It's not easy to install with the engine in the car. I believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The crankshaft seal which is actually mounted in the oil pump housing is an ordinary seal with a metal housing and a rubber lip to rub on the crankshaft.

There are 3 washers on your crankshaft. Two smaller ones and one big one. I have uploaded a picture of the 3 washers at:

http://yourpage.blazenet.net/john48/washers.jpg

The big washer in the picture is the one I think has been worn through and wrapped up in your timing belt.

Good luck with your project.
John

[woodturner9]

Thanks!!!!

Festy46 writes:

>I think I know what your bent up piece of metal is. It's the large washer >that fits directly against the crankshaft timing gear and helps keep the >timing belt from coming off the timing gear. Your timing belt has been

Thanks!! That looks like the part. It has been a while since I have had the timing belt covers off, so I had forgotten about that third spacer. That picture fits everything I have been able to surmise about the part, and it is also clearly NOT on the car now. I think you found my mystery part!!

>Carefully inspect the tensioner pulley. Something caused the timing belt >to attempt to come off. I would think either the bearings are getting bad >in the pulley and causing it to seize up, or the bolt that holds the pulley >is either loose or bent. If you remove the tensioner pulley to inspect it, >take careful note of the tensioner spring and rubber boot because it only >goes on one way. Don't get it on backwards when you re-install it.

Could it just be that the belt was too old? In checking my service records, I think I may have missed the last change interval, so it likely has something like 120K miles on it.

The tensioner seems to rotate freely but does make a little noise when rotated by hand. Not a 'gravelly' sound like a bad bearing, but more of a "whirring" sound. I noted this sound when I did the last (recorded) timing belt change 120K miles ago (at 145K or so), and it doesn't seem to be any worse. It may be a normal sound for that bearing.

>You will have to remove the crankshaft pulley/pulleys to replace the >washer. You don't need to remove the crankshaft (large) center bolt, >just the 4 small bolts that take a 10mm socket and the 2 little phillips >head screws. You can remove the phillips head screws with a phillips

Are the two little screws important? I left them out after the first timing belt change because they seemed to duplicate the function of the 4 bolts. Maybe I should put them back?

>If you support the passenger side of your engine and then remove the >motor mount on that side, you should be able to lower the front of the >engine enough to get the pulleys off. If your front crankshaft seal isn't >leaking, I would not try to replace it. It's not easy to install with the

OK, sounds like good advice. The car is leaking oil, but I think it's a combination of putting 5W30 in it, leaking valve cover grommets/gasket, and a leaking drain plug washer. I don't see any evidence of significant leakage from the crankshaft seal, so I'll leave that alone.

Any suggestions on where to find the spacers? I'll try the dealer, but they don't seem to be able to get a lot of the Festiva parts anymore, and of course are expensive. Know of an aftermarket source?

Thanks for your help.

[Festy46]

It's possible some of the cords in your timing belt broke on one side, A flat belt (like a timing belt) will move off the side of the pulley/flat gear toward the broken cord side. If the outside edge of your timing belt had a broken cord, then it would try to run toward the outside of the timing gears.

Take hold of your tensioner pulley and pinch it between your thumb and index finger where the bolt goes through. Close your eyes and roll the pulley on a smooth surface like your computer mouse pad. The pulley should be so smooth when it rotates that you can't tell if it is rolling or sliding without looking at the pulley. If you can easily tell it's rolling, it would be a good idea to replace it.

I wouldn't worry about those 2 little screws. I'm not 100% sure without looking, but I don't think the "big nose" crankshaft uses any little screws at all.

If you want a set of used washers, I can sell you the set in my picture for $5.00 including shipping. Private message me with your address if you want them.
John

[woodturner9]

it works, sort of

I got the baffles, spacers, and tensioner I bought from Festy46 (thanks, Festy46!!). I installed a brand new timing belt and the used but good condition tensioner. FWIW, in contrast the original tensioner is definitely starting to make a bearing noise, and is "loose" - the used part I installed is definitely better.

One side note, I forgot the 'trick' to installing the tensioner spring. What I ended up doing was installing the tensioner and spring first, leaving the bolt loose so it would slide, then installed the timing belt. I got the timing belt started, then rotated the engine manually by the camshaft bolt to work the timing belt on fully. Then I manually slid the tensioner in and out a few times, and tightened it.

With the covers off and the pulleys off, I tried to start the car. After a lot of cranking, probably due to sitting for a couple of weeks, it started rough, stalled. Repeated this a few times, then it started, ran rough, and smoothed out. Now it starts and sounds normal, except there is still a lot of white gray smoke at higher speeds. Hopefully that will resolve itself when the car fully warms up and is driven a bit (I did not want to run it very long, since the water pump belt was not installed).

However, there is still a problem. The timing belt seems fine at low and moderate speed - but when I rev the engine to high speeds (didn't measure, but running pretty fast - maybe 3000 RPM?), the belt starts to migrate off the sprockets, to the point it was about to come off entirely. When the engine is slowed back down, it stays like that - it doesn't migrate back on.

I realize that the baffle will keep it from actually coming off, but I'm concerned that there is still a problem, and that it will wear through the baffle again. I suppose it's possible it's just due to the new belt and will be fine in time, but I'm still concerned.

One other thing I noticed was that the timing belt was "fluttering" on the sides at high speed. Is this normal?

I assume the problem is not the tensioner, since that was replaced. What else could be causing the belt drift, and what should I do about it?

Thanks.

[Festy46]

The first thing you should do is reset the belt tension. When you turned the engine over using the camshaft bolt, you put the tension on the tensioner side of the belt and the slack on the other side. That is backwards from what you want. Loosen the tensioner bolt and turn the engine over at least 2 complete 360 degree turns by turning the crankshaft, not the camshaft. That will make the belt tight on the non tensioner side and the tensioner pulley can then move in with the spring pulling on it and take up the slack. Tighten the bolt and try running the engine and see how it goes.
John

[woodturner9]

retensioned the belt

I did retension the belt, as suggested. I also tried removing the belt and tensioner and reinstalling it the sequence suggested (belt first, then tensioner).

It seems slightly better, but the timing belt still wants to track about 1/4" off the front of the sprocket. When I reassemble it with the baffle, the belt stays on, of course, but eventually it will wear through the baffle again.

I'm wondering if the cause of the problem might be a worn camshaft bearing. The belt seems fine until the engine speeds increases. Maybe there is a slight groove worn in the camshaft bearing, so it's just enough to track a little off.

Any other ideas? The engine has 265,000 miles on it, so I guess I can't really complain ;-)

Thanks.

[Festy46]

Check the gear on the crankshaft to make sure it is tight on the shaft
Make sure the tensioner pulley bolt isn't bent.
Try to pry the camshaft up and check for movement. If the bearings are worn bad enough to let the belt run off, you should be able to see movement.
Also check the end play of the cam. The maximum distance the cam should move from front to back is .008" If the distance is a lot greater than .008", this could be some of your problem.
If you were prying on the belt with a screw driver to get it on you may have stretched one side. Take the belt off and turn it around so the outside is toward the inside.
If everything checks out and it still runs off, you might want to try a different
camshaft gear.
John