rpikle, this thread's for YOU!!

[Tom]

Day one. Running great but I don't dare let my hopes get to high. It's ran good before days at a time.

[Tom]

I'm just about flat broke for a short while here. Otherwise I would be driving all over and going to Fargo and garage sales and whatnot and get us a quicker reading on this. The way it is I am driving little so it is going to take awhile to get a reading on this. It seems to be running good. It was slightly rough one time for a second or so but I didn't let it warm up like I usually do that time so the choke was probably a bit closed. I think everything is OK right now. I will let you know as soon as I get a better reading or something happens. Thanks

[FestYboy]

fair enough....

[Tom]

Running good. It was smoking a little more than usual through my valve cover breather bypass hose so I changed the oil and filter and put 20/50 oil in it, it was due for a change and a lot of my cars throughout my life have smoked a little when they got overdue for a oil change. The rings and valve guides don't seat quite as nicely with dirty oil. Castroil 20-50 is a great oil for older engines during warm weather periods. Fills up the gaps a little better from all the miles and wear and raises the oil pressure a little bit. I have coughed a few times and sputtered just a little once but my timing is set by ear and there is something wrong in the compression department besides the current problem I keep having. One of these days I will get some gas and then do a lot more driving than these few short trips to town that are like ten miles round trip. I put a hundred and fifty miles a day and more with hundreds of stops and goes when I'm on the go and have plenty of gas. It will show one way or the other in the next few weeks.

[FestYboy]

you MUST set your timing properly otherwise you might as well throw metal shavings into your engine.... timing is imperative, i can't stress this enough. GET IT DONE RIGHT!!!! i mean my god man, the tool to do it costs $20 and it's vital to the survival of your festy. not doing it is an insult.

[Tom]

No your not focused here. You could set your timing yourself on any of your cars and be just fine. A non experienced person who would have the timing way off would or could hurt his car. For instance for years we have set our timing back to where is will just slightly ping on a road test and then moving just a little at a time forward until the ping is no longer there but just barely. This is where you get maximum gas mileage. For power and throttle and torque you set it the other way making sure that the starter turns over properly and then the way it starts and runs and acts is in the range of what you want it to be. We have set timing on tractors and cars and trucks since the beginning this way and then checked them with lights and seen where they were at and then how they reacted when rev-ed a little or a lot. Timing lights are good yes. Even with timing light we will set the timing sometimes whatever degrees in order to get the best running condition for what we are doing. I had to move mine several times n order to find a good optimum middle ground spot. Then by looking at the holding nut and slider I can remove ad replace the distributor and get it pretty close and then again set it by sound and feel. Setting points by using a matchbook and then doing the same thing with more or less gap effects your timing too and then quick throttling to check how your vacuum advance is fitting into this is important too. If it pops or sounds rough or grabs or stalls improperly then it's to far off. The way it idles is important and the way the starter sounds is very important. We used to joke that with a 9/16 wrench and a screwdriver and a pair of pliers we could fix a Chevy about anytime. We couldn't but it came close. I know what you are saying though. Timing is very important and you can hurt your engine if you don't know what your doing. Electronics and computers and vacuums nowadays effects everything quite a bit though and you got to be a lot closer and sometimes you got to be right on to get all the sensors and signals to perform correctly.

[quaddawg]

Tom, retarded timing won't ping, advanced timing pings, and maximum power is achieved through timing that is advanced to just before pinging (detonation) I think you got it backwards there. In the Indian,and old Harley crowd, there is a saying that you used to remember when you were green.. it rhymed.. "Retard it to Start it" as timing advance was a control you used while starting and riding. It was the left handlebar grip, there was NO automatic timing advance, or retard, you just cranked the grip back to kick start the bike, and when you took off, you advanced the timing for more power. Those were the days.. those bikes were antiques even when I was starting to ride... but nothing is so sweet as all the manual controls...

Advance.... power... Retard, easy starting, but higher emissions, unburnt fuel, and poor economy.

Acually, you are thinking incorrectly about power vs. economy. If your engine is timed for it's best power, over a certain RPM range, you are also getting the best economy.. The best use of fuel/air means that you are getting the most power per volume of gasoline, hence more power and more economy. The problems arise in that the engine has different demands for timing under different amounts of load and differing RPM, so ideal timing is not easily acheived through a mechanical system (such as ours) for ALL RPM and load conditions. SO, there is usually a trade off in one range or another. Setting your timing such that you have the best burn at a moderate throttle and load setting means better economy whilst cruising, whereas setting your timing, and thusly your burn for higher RPMS and loads gives you more full throttle power, and by way of physics, better economy under full throttle. The vacuum advance and if equipped vacuum retard, coupled with variable static timing, and mechical advance seeks to try to acheive the best timing under ALL loads and RPMS, but in these mechical systems that is not always (read--never) possible, so you learn, with experience where the best compromise is.

And, I do agree with Tom, in that this is probably NOT a factory recommended setting, but again, I agree with FestyBoy that a novice might as well just chuck a handful of shavings into the intake as to blindly twist away on the distributor...


Too much advance = detonation, overheating, death for engines....
Too much retard = no run, fouled plugs etc

Don't forget, we are just talking static advance here, so it is just a part of the equation, you still have mechanical advance, which may or may NOT be operating correctly, you still have vacuum advance which is only a factor during high vacuum periods, vacuum retard which also is only a factor during specific conditions.

Not sure how much total advance the B3 can tolerate, but I am sure it's not a huge amount.. Hey Festy boy, what is the maximum mechanical advance our distys dish out above, what 3000 rpm? about 14 or so?? Doesn't really matter... cause all we can set is the STATIC timing without actually changing weights and springs and such in the disty.. just wondering.

I am agreeing with both you fellas though.. I have been setting timing with a light, AND by ear and feel for over 30 years. I usually check my settings with a light afterwards, or during for that matter, and I don't recommend newbies screwing around with thier timing by ear, or sure enough... trouble.

In our old Chevys, we sometimes hooked up choke cables to our timing, so we could vary it when we wanted to... LOL... a throwback to days when ALL gasoline engines had manual timing levers/grips/knobs, etc.....

darn, this makes me feel old.. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of members here have never heard of a motorcycle with BOTH grips rotating to control the engine.... lol

[Tom]

Yah I had that backwards. Your right on the money for sure. Thanks for the response.

[FestYboy]

festys will handle 34* at full advance with STOCK timing, but if you run high octane i've run as much as +10* (44* total) without detonation (ping) and i'm sure i could have gotten one or two more, but that would have been pushing it. all of this was done w/ a light to ensure accuracy, NOT BY EAR.

[WmWatt]

On computer controlled engines timing is automatically advanced by the computer using the oxygen sensor reading to optimize fuel economy. All you do when you set the timing manually is set the "base" timing which is used until the O2 sensor warms up and starts sending signals to the computer.

It's not perfect. The engine designers put a stock vehicle on a tread mill and take a lot of readings which are used to set the default parameters in the computer. However the computer is also programmed to record data and adjust the default parameters as the car ages. That's why after disconnecting the battery which wipes out the computer's memory, it takes about 20 miles of driving for the computer to record enough data to get the car running optimally again.

[quaddawg]

I run 12 BTDC static, What do you think my JDM B6 Distributer adds? I don't have an advance light, or know the specs on my Disty. I would like to know my total advance. How do I go about finding that?

WmWatt, I don't even have an O2 circuit, although I know the stock Festys do.... Mine is old school.... I only have one vacuum hose too, no ported, just pure manifold vacuum. No computer control, No injection, no emissions,no computer controlled carb either, just a Holley/Weber 32/36 on a JDM intake, with adapters...

I have run as much as +14* static, with nary a ping, I do run high octane most of the time... but the car does seem to run better backed off a bit. I am going to go through my disty soon, to make sure the mechanical advance is nice and clean/smooth/tight.


I too check my timing changes with a light. Better safe than sorry. These engines turn a bit more RPM than an old Tractor... LOL...

[FestYboy]

quad, to check total advance, run the engine up to 3400 rpm and get an adjustable timing light. turn the dial on the light till the mark is even w/ the arrow, then look at your light. whatever the light is set at is your timing.

you CAN have too much timing and still not ping. when this happens, the pressure from the expanding gasses start to work against the upward motion of the piston resulting in power loss. the flame front is still clean so you won't hear pinging but you'll loose power and economy. honestly 10* is plenty for any static setting for idle on most engines.

ps: the server kicked me off before posting the above message, thank god i remembered to copy it before hitting "send"

[quaddawg]

Yeah, I don't have an advance (adjustible) light.. that is my problem. I also did experience having too much timing, and sure enough, no ping, but less power, like you say. 10*-12* seems to be best too, like you say. I will back mine off a tad and see if it is even better than the 12 I run now.

I really need a GOOD light, even though the cheapies will do, I want a good adjustible one.

Thanks FB.

You guys might doubt him, but FB KNOWS what he is talking about. I have read a LOT of advice from a lot of people, but only a few folks I will take advice from, FB is one.

[Tom]

It did it again! I drove it about twenty miles a few days ago thinking everything was all right and it was. Then when I got there and turned the car off and went in it was decided that I should go home and get my camera. I got in it and drove about a half a mile and it coughed. Then it started running rough but still going. This is what it always does when it is getting ready to hardly run at all. It was one straight shot the 20 miles home so I went for it hoping that it would make it because there were no stops and goes and that is when it seems to get worse quicker. I made it home but it cut out several times and on the few slow downs at stops near my house I just barely got it to feather enough to get going and get it home. I didn't try the unplugging the round plug because I was afraid to stop that I might not get it going again. So I got my camera and drove the Jeep back the 20 miles. When I got home that afternoon several hours later the first thing I did was start the Festiva and thinking it might be the same I would then stop and try unplugging the round plug by the distributor. It coughed and ran a little rough and dies on me when I tried to go and I thought it was the same way and I would drive it about a block and then unplug the plug but instead it started running good again so I couldn't try that test. It now drives like normal the few miles to town and back but I'm sure that will lots of driving and stops and goes and lots of distance it is going to do the same old problem. Thanks

[FestYboy]

try this; run the car till it's at opp temp and pull the round plug and LEAVE IT THAT WAY with out shutting the engine off. the engine should stay running. see how long it lasts.


oh BTW not being a prick about this, but could you break up your sentances and paragraphs a bit? it's hard to read you thought processes and be able to read what your're saying. i know you don't talk how you type... or do you...? :shock: :wink: