ATX upgrades - lockup converter available?

[Safety Guy]

Interesting ideas, Christ.

Also be aware that different years of Aspire ATXs had slightly different final drives. I think the first two years were the same, followed by a slightly lower numerical final drive in '96 and finishing with the lowest numerical final drive in '97. I could be wrong about the relationships, but I'm pretty sure the best mpgs were the target in '97.

I was thinking about going to an Aspire ATX for my '93GL, but I'd much rather put in a '90-'94 323 four speed ATX. There is of course, ECU control over some of the ATX functions in those transaxles, which is why ATX 323s have three plugs going in while MTX 323s use two pluggers like all Festivas do.

Karl

[Christ]

A fully electronic trans wouldn't be all bad, since you can control the solenoids with switches to manually change gears on many of them, and lockup is as simple as a 12v feed on a switch, like it was on my Caravan.

Ultimately, whatever I do to this car, the less "open minded" members of this forum will likely not appreciate, as it will certainly not be "normal" in comparison to what seems to go on here.

In other words, I won't be swapping in a gasser to make it faster, or gearing it to beat everything from light to light. Honestly, I can only hope that whatever I do will be of some interest to someone on here, even a lurker who hasn't signed up for reasons unknown.

[crazyrog17]

My girlfriend has a '90 323 and I envy her 4th gear and nicer shifts.

Karl, do you know if that trans came in any other vehicles? 323s are nonexistant around me for some reason...

The electronic control is something else to think about though. How much, if at all, did it interface with the ECU? Just a tach signal I hope.

[71Montego]

Less the Overdrive the final drive ratio on a Standard 4 spd trans is 1 to 1. With an NON lock up converter in an ATX the drive ratio is not totally 1 to 1. A Lock up converter gets you back to 1 to 1 and a littler lower RPM in return better MPG.

[Safety Guy]

Zack, I'd guess that most of the earlier ATX Proteges would use the same transaxle for their B8s at least, and maybe for their BPs. I figure up until 1994 or '95, the 323 and Proteges probably shared the same 4 speed ATX. Just a guess!

My plan would be to buy a nice running, but worn out looking 323 and study the ATX and wiring. I already have both MTX and ATX ECUs from '90 to '94 323s. The only difference seems to be the small center plug hole in them. I haven't looked closely though, nor have I ever taken them apart. That wouldn't do my much good anyway, since I don't know enough about electronics to tell anything much.

My main two concerns are "will it fit?" and "can I wire it up and get it to work?"

A 4 speed ATX Festiva would be awesome, and the fuel economy should approach that of a 4 speed manual. I'd guess around 40 to 42 mpg at around 65 mph.

The best my B6/ATX '93GL ever got on the freeway was 37 or so at about 60 to 65 mph.

Karl

[htchbck]

A fully electronic trans wouldn't be all bad, since you can control the solenoids with switches to manually change gears on many of them, and lockup is as simple as a 12v feed on a switch, like it was on my Caravan.

Ultimately, whatever I do to this car, the less "open minded" members of this forum will likely not appreciate, as it will certainly not be "normal" in comparison to what seems to go on here.

In other words, I won't be swapping in a gasser to make it faster, or gearing it to beat everything from light to light. Honestly, I can only hope that whatever I do will be of some interest to someone on here, even a lurker who hasn't signed up for reasons unknown.

If you're leaning towards work to get better gas mileage without losing any performance, then yes, there's several of us here that are into that too, myself included. If financials ever start looking up (doubtful lol) I'm hoping to be the first to complete (or at least attempt) a 4-speed auto conversion on my wife's car, which is currently a rare bird already as the only known carb'd ATX festive out there. It will be interesting seeing how I may or may not end up being able to control the trans using a non-EFI car to start with, but my thinking is that if it can be done on a carby, then certainly the info I find out in the process will make it that much easier for someone to do it on an EFI car. So rest assured you're not alone in this. I know Karl (Safety Guy) has been kicking around the idea of a 4-speed auto longer than I have (I never really had an interest until my non-stick-driving wife took an interest in having a festie of her own).

[Safety Guy]

FWIW, here are the two ECUs compared:





The pins inside the outer two plugs appear to be the same as the MTX two plugger.

I have two theories based upon this comparison:

1. The middle plug is solely for the computer control of the 323 ATX.

2. Those who get their B6s out of ATX cars can probably use the ATX ECU by simply plugging in their two Festiva plugs and ignoring the middle plug.

Also, if one had an ATX 323, one could trace the middle plug's wiring and pull out and/or duplicate that wiring to fab another part of the harness to run a 4 speed ATX Festiva.

What do ya'll think? Have any of you compared these two ECUs before?

One test would be to swap in the three plugger to any B6 Festiva to see if it runs the same. That would confirm that the two outer plug holes serve the same purpose, and those who do the B6 swap can get ECUs a lot easier. Most of the 323s I've seen in the 'yards were ATXs, though the sample is still small (about half a dozen in the past few years).

Finally, if all of the above holds true, the same relationship may hold for the B8 swaps. (I've never seen a B8 ECU of either persuasion, however, so I really don't know.)

Karl

[htchbck]

One test would be to swap in the three plugger to any B6 Festiva to see if it runs the same. That would confirm that the two outer plug holes serve the same purpose, and those who do the B6 swap can get ECUs a lot easier.

I know a guy with a B6 festiva who has one of the three plug ATX ECUs... if we could just get him to swap it out and test it for us

Also, anyone know anything about the FU06 or G4-HL trans? The wiring diagrams in Mitchells are much much much simpler than the F4A-EL or G4A-EL, presumably because they are likely not electronically controlled. Haven't yet been able to find out what they came in other than they are supposedly in the 88-89 323s and it shows an overdrive solenoid so I assume its 4-speed (I'm sure the G4A-HL is, but the FU06 I don't know).

[Christ]

It's probably a fluid controlled 3 speed with either electronic lockup, or a "4th" ratio that had a switched electronic solenoid.

I've heard lockup referred to as over drive count less times, because without full lock, a mild (.89:1) over drive might still only be 1:1, then with lock, it's actually over.

I still remember my hyundai excel had a "sport" button in it... Which just made it rev higher between shifts, if I ever let it shift on it's own anyway.

[htchbck]

At any rate, the G4A-HL if it exists sounds like a non-electronic version of the G4A-EL, at least according to Mitchell's, which so far is the only data I can find on it.

[htchbck]

Here's the diagram from Mitchell's for the F4A-EL in the '90 323/Protege. They seem to vary slightly a bit from year to on the EL ones, but not too much. At the bottom you can see the part that excites me most outlined in Red which appears to be for a non-electric G4A, but I can't find out if/where this was available. The F4A-EL doesn't appear to be catastrophically impossible though, as long as one had the B6/ATX ECU and all the plugs, with a healthy dose of patience to go with it I went ahead and labeled the shift solenoid with what I believe to be correct, going off the '94 Protege diagrams. The solenoids appear to use the same wire color throughout the years so that should be correct.

[getnpsi]

I had a similar thread going in the turbo swap area because i think an auto + turbo would make a good all around festiva for the streets. Seemed to have some answers but no one had donor cars to try it w/o out of pocket research.

[Safety Guy]

I googled G4HL and got these, WITH ILLUSTRATIONS!:

http://www.transparts.ru/pdf/g4a_04_w.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_G4A-EL_transmission

http://atsg.com/cart/products/G4A_HL-100-3.html

http://www.ukrtrans.biz/files/catalog/mazda/G4A-EL.pdf

Yep, HL is hydraulic controlled and EL is electronic controlled. HL offered in the early 323.

When I next see an early 323 I will examine it carefully. Same with the early Tracer.

The HL could indeed be an easy swap. Both definitely four speeds! Definitely in the 323s!

SPECIFICALLY, READ PAGE 408 IN THE LAST LINK.

Karl

[htchbck]

Thanks Karl! I hadn't looked too much into the G4 knowing it is very large (had one in my '89 MX6 auto). But who knows it might be able to cram in there. I'm still hoping to find the FU06 which in theory should be an F-series 4speed hydro... but I don't really know.

[htchbck]

Same with the early Tracer.

According to wackopedia the Tracers were F3As... couple other sources confirm

Also, all this time I've been assuming the auto F trans would be smaller than a G, but I really don't know if thats true or not. Just found out the the FU06 is a four speed, and apparently was available in the '88 323, the '89 used the G4A-HL... both hydro. Also, the casing *appears* to be the same between the F4A-EL and the G4A-HL, so maybe there isn't a size difference like I had thought. I wish I could find a yard near here with an old 323... Oh well I'll keep looking I guess.