Coolant mods - higher compression setups

[XFSE71]

... It's just an engine ... i shouldn't be running 15w40 diesel oil ... burned a valve ... engine is an engine ... a different prospective ... 6 b3 blocks ... the 534 cuber from a F850 ...

1. Diesel oil has fly ash neutralizer to reduce the acidic sulphur content in the oil from burning the sulphur rich fuel ... cringe ... the acid neutralizer reduces the film sterngth of the oil ... evidence ... 2000 CC OHC Pinto Camshaft failure ... circa 1972
2. Ford is not proud of the 534. It was labled the most inefficient engine power to weight, known as an anchor ... the 460 weighed less and made simular power.
3. Since you won't be using them, would you be willing to sell me the two VCVs from the underside of your carbie intake manifold (1 green 1 white) ... grin ...
4.Since a Rock Auto T-stat is only $5 why not keep it stock? You'll burn more than that welding a Chevy housing on your Festy ... just saying

[jason_]

1. Diesel oil has fly ash neutralizer to reduce the acidic sulphur content in the oil from burning the sulphur rich fuel ... cringe ... the acid neutralizer reduces the film sterngth of the oil ... evidence ... 2000 CC OHC Pinto Camshaft failure ... circa 1972
2. Ford is not proud of the 534. It was labled the most inefficient engine power to weight, known as an anchor ... the 460 weighed less and made simular power.
3. Since you won't be using them, would you be willing to sell me the two VCVs from the underside of your carbie intake manifold (1 green 1 white) ... grin ...
4.Since a Rock Auto T-stat is only $5 why not keep it stock? You'll burn more than that welding a Chevy housing on your Festy ... just saying

1, everything is 15 40

2 534 was rebuilt 2000 miles prior to me getting it for free, and I needed big displacement for low rpm torque, I needed to dredge my pond, and it fit my pontoon boat perfect and already had a bell housing to fit the block for gearbox, and works nicely on my pump, 8inch in 6in out.

3, don't have intakes, just blocks. Sorry

4, already mentioned previously in was going to go that route. And jumping on the variable fan modification.


Seems this might be covered in one day, just no results

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[blkfordsedan]

I would just go with an aftermarket fan control kit that has an adjustable thermoswitch. Some heat is required to have efficient combustion and make power. If it doesn't have issues maintaining temp and the only problem is spark knock, I would try backing timing off to see what it will tolerate. Make sure to run a standard Copper Core plug and avoid the Platinum plugs with fine wire electrodes. Might try a colder heat range as well. Make sure the fuel filter is new as well. You could also try an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to richer up the mixture as well. If the cam timing is too far advanced, and it most likely is, you can reduce the dynamic compression by retarding the cam back to where it should be and closing the intake valve later.

[Zanzer]

Alright


Milled 0.048" off head

Had to jump a tooth on the cam gear, factory line up would spit past intake valves... So, quick fix was to clock cam one tooth. Not sure if it was too much, or not enough, regardless if either, will need an adjustable gear.

This could be wreaking havoc with your base timing. I'd get some factory cam specs, a degree wheel, and a dial indicatior and sort this out first.

[blkfordsedan]

46 teeth on the cam gear, 360/46=7.826 CAM degrees per tooth = 15.65 CRANK degrees in terms of valve timing events. That is a butt-load. The timing belt is 5/16 pitch, so .048/.3125=.1536 of a tooth, or 2.40 crank degrees. So, by milling the head .048" you retard the valve timing by 2.4 crank degrees. By advancing the sprocket (either cam or crank sprocket) by 1 tooth, you advance the valve timing by 15.65 crank degrees. Kinda puts things into perspective.

As far as ignition timing, you NEED to use a timing light so you know where it's at.

[Zanzer]

46 teeth on the cam gear, 360/46=7.826 CAM degrees per tooth = 15.65 CRANK degrees in terms of valve timing events. That is a butt-load. The timing belt is 5/16 pitch, so .048/.3125=.1536 of a tooth, or 2.40 crank degrees. So, by milling the head .048" you retard the valve timing by 2.4 crank degrees. By advancing the sprocket (either cam or crank sprocket) by 1 tooth, you advance the valve timing by 15.65 crank degrees. Kinda puts things into perspective.

^ Mathlete :mrgreen:

[jason_]

This could be wreaking havoc with your base timing. I'd get some factory cam specs, a degree wheel, and a dial indicatior and sort this out first.

I figured. Once I empty this 4 week old 87 octane with 92, we'll have better results. From there valve timing, and I need to find someone to go half's on a gear set order.

On a note, My 01 YZ450F will not run on 1month old 92 octane. And that's 12.5:1. then Again head design might be giving that the high CR advantage on pump gas.

As far as ignition timing, you NEED to use a timing light so you know where it's at.

Why wouldn't I use a light? First post I said she's 10* dead on factory, and anything less gets doggy/sluggish. Unless there's a 3rd mark on the pulley I'm not seeing. I sandblasted, painted gray, then white touch upped the nicks to make it easy with a xeon bulb.

And I did ask for a lower temp tstat. I don't plan on running it open forever. FI is obviously more sensitive to coolant temps then a carbed setup. I'm guessing from the ecms temp sensor.

Bear in mind, as of this morning , it's got 62 miles on the build. Far from broken in yet. Still have some time before I move to a 2nd plate to sort out.

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[blkfordsedan]

Hey, I have never used a timing light on my Festiva since I've owned it. I dont even own a timing light any more. When I am assembling or timing an engine, I just set the crank and distributor to where I want it (like 10*BTDC). That's always gotten it close enough to start and run pretty well. From there, I tweak it by ear and feel until it runs and starts best. I figured you may have done the same. Nothing wrong with doing it that way, but in a situation like yours where you are trying to find the spark knock limit, I would use a timing light. That way you can get very specific and accurate.

Honestly, I would not have thought that milling your head (even .048") would have retarded the cam timing enough to cause the backfire you described. I could see it causing poor throttle response and a lack of power, but not as severe as you described. Seems to me it would be a lot closer that having it off by an entire tooth. Is it possible you have something else going on here, like a vacuum leak or a lean fuel condition?

[jason_]

I don't think anything else is in my way. I pulled my hair for a week trying different things.

The last 4 1.3s I built, stock, fired up, for friends.

This project didn't. I quadruple checked the obvious. Even pulled the 97 cam and put in the 95 cam with 460K on it. Same results. Swapoed for another distributior, same results. I was getting desperate. I couldn't understand why swapping block and head would make it not run like the other 4. Besides the ratio so miserable high (honestly I went blind guessing the mill, and cc change on pistons scared me after I shaved the material....) it wouldn't run on pump gas.

Other day a hose was off and noticed it pushing air when it tried to fire. So I jumped a tooth, now disregarding the factory line up, and she instantly fired. /me shrugs.

Idling she pulls almost 25# vacuum.
I hosed the gauge and drove, she keeps a 5-13 vacuum when feathering gas petal on flat ground to keep 55/60

Today I topped off with 2 gallons more of 93 octane, and the spark nock seemed to be less.

Open tstat keeping temps low might be dumping more fuel the needed. That's a possibility, odb1 uses temp to get out of closed loop. Today ill try and find fatter electrode copper plugs. That combined with the chambers polished (carbon build up) should help with random detonation.


As I said, as I get more miles and slowly trying something new for a few trips, should be able to get this sorted. I think I'm right on the verge with this head and pistons, for pump gas.

Cam timing I'll do last, as that's the most work, and I don't have an adjustable gear handy.

I doubt lean, injectors are under 60k miles, new filter, new k&n, and new O2 sensor.

It runs strong. Without using clutch, just stomping the throttle, slow idle, rolling slowly, it'll break tires loose on dry pavement. In overdrive it'll walk up small hills, actually gain a few mph, with 1/2 to 3/4 throttle.

Cam can't be that far off. Maybe it's what it wants with this compression.

Like I said, needs more miles for more data. And still somewhat null data until broken in.

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[jason_]

Ok. Another week of driving, results getting better. I'm burning a fuzz over a gallon for a 1way trip. 52 miles one way. Everyday I dump in 2gallons, and I've been gaining on the needle. Fail safe method to measure. Gearbox hasn't been hooked up/broken for 5 years. Keeps the miles down/ups the resale value..... /me shrugs

The reason I argue a low temp tstat isn't bad, or harmful, is because of one day...

Coworker bought a new 2011 dodge ram. They work at an apartment complex. Truck is started nearly 40-50 times a day, moved from one building to another. Runs for maybe 2-3 mins tops.

One day I decided to pull valve cover cap. Cap, and down inside cover, tremendous amount of moisture.

Factory thermostat, and I'm sure it's around 190*+.

I'm sure a 160* will be fine in my setup, doing 50 mile 1way trips, actually working the engine and keeping it up to temp.

Temp gun verifies ecm likes and goes into slow idle around 150/155*. If I can stay a bit above that, that'll keep ecm out of closed loop and stay from rich run conditions.

Heat is playing a huge part in battling my detonation. A full tank drain and fill of 93 octane made a difference. Only time I begin to notice some, if any at all, is near full throttle when ecm pulls the timing further advanced, and it running a bit on the warmer range of 170/180. I did buy a range 11 ngk, didn't help any, little if any at all.

Base timimg has been kept @10 advanced.

One idea, not sure of anyone can help, as it seems most are against my cooler,water jacket ideas, and the fact I can't find any posts (unless I'm overlooking somewhere) is the electric fan is triggered by a relay, I'm sure is controlled by a temp sensor that's fed voltage and using resistance to trigger when things need to happen.

This keep things wired factory, it'd be nice to modify the resistance with a resistor to trick the fan into coming on around 170 when it thinks it's near the 220*F mark.

Obviously this will only benefit me when parked, or severe stop/go traffic on a hot summer day . Driving down the road this fan mod will do me no gain. So, it's nothing as necessary as a low temp thermostat install.

Book will tell me what wire, but if no one knows values, I'll have to tear it into it with my fieldpiece instead of making a trip to radio shack.

I do have the temp/ohm list of a gm sensor, but it's hit and miss if they're the same.


So in the mean time, if anyone has had hands on for modifying fan sensor input, let me know. And next week I'll put the cam timing back a tooth. Only doubt I have in my mind, is somehow something was holding an intake valve open, and I flagged it has intake lobes late.

Seems as though it would run if one intake was hanging open, 4bangers run one on one dead plug...

So, latest update, and where I stand.



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[blkfordsedan]

The fan system is very basic. It has a temp sensor in the head that is normally closed (grounded). When the engine gets up to temp (its marked on the sensor), the temp sensor opens, the ground is broken, the control side of the relay is de-energized and the fan side of the relay closes...turning on the fan. If you unplug the small wire going to the temp sensor, the fan should turn on and remain on. You can leave it unplugged so the fan runs 24/7 when the key is on (mine was this way for 5 years). You could also wire a simple switch into this wire and mount it in the dash so you can have it in standard "automatic" mode or flip a switch anytime you want to turn the fan on.

[jason_]

Festiva or aspire?

I unplug the sensor my dash goes to zilch and the fan still comes on as needed. I'm assuming the sensor in the head is for the dash.

And by your description, my system must never come up to temp, because the fan is on only for moments then off, only when parked for several minutes not pulling heat off core.

Or always off if im pulling heat from heater core, (this was also the case when I had the 192 tstat installed before block/head swap), so it's keeping it under a certain threshold.

So I assumed there's a 2nd sensor the ecm is using reading a 5v return based on resistance changes from sensor.



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[jason_]

I think I've gotten the coolant problem solved.

only time it occasionally pings randomly is when I make it wot and really wind it up. I'm sure the ecm is pulling the timing crazy advanced. which isn't a problem with a slower burn from lower compression.

next is a different ecm/tune.

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