87 b6 head with the fms cam

[sasquatch]

i found this

http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3610

im going to the junkyard on wed. so im making a shopping list is there anything im missing? aspire: cam shaft and rocker arms. do i need the rocker arm shaft too? is it the same? should i keep the same rockers on the same shaft? is the timing belt gear diffrend? will the dist. still go in the slot in the cam?
also, i still cant find where you get the "HD" springs from... what car are they out of?

[sasquatch]

dang... i would edit the above post but i was to late anyways, while im at the junk yard is there any other parts that i can grab off of diffrent cars to get even more power out of my b6? i dont care how much it is... im trying to get every last bit of power out of it with out going after market other than stuff like a header and a msd 6al-2 and a msd coil and junk like that. im going for factory power... any ideas?

[blkfordsedan]

The proper valve spring pressure is determined by the cam profile (lift, ramp speed, etc.). It only has to be adequate for the camshaft. Without knowing the requirements of the FMS cam and since plenty here have run it with stock springs, there is little sense in worrying about it too much. I would suspect, however, that a stiffer than stock spring would offer improved performance, we just don't know how much stiffer. I remember a red Festiva project at FMS that was running their cam and had different valve springs .....SOMEONE there has the answers! You could even degree the cam if you had the timing events and an adjustable sprocket.

If you want to use stock parts I would consider the Aspire cam & rockers. Just because the cam has less lift or duration doesn't mean it won't offer better flow. Roller cams don't require as much and usually have a lot flatter torque curve and better drivability. It would also provide less friction and reduced oil temp, which is always good. The only possible drawback I could imagine is that the Aspire cam was designed for the smaller displacement (1.3L) and computer tuning of the heavy Aspire. My guess is its designed for low rpm torque and economy and may offer increased low end in a B6 and be weak in the mid to high rpm. This may or may not be correct, until someone does a dyno comparison that's all we have. There's no point in using anything other than stock springs on a stock cam. If the old ones are high mileage you may get some improvement by installing new stock springs.

If you want a custom Aspire roller grind, contact a cam manufacturer and let them tell you what can be done and what you will need. It may be easier to regrind an older mechanical cam since they have adjustable rockers.

With anything other than a factory cam you should really do a mild pocket port and port match to take full advantage. The other easy thing you can do is bump the compression by milling the head. If you want to get crazy, do a complete balance & blueprint, it all depends on where you want to draw the line. Especially since you can get a used BP for the price of a custom ground cam and double your HP.

[sasquatch]

The proper valve spring pressure is determined by the cam profile (lift, ramp speed, etc.). It only has to be adequate for the camshaft. Without knowing the requirements of the FMS cam and since plenty here have run it with stock springs, there is little sense in worrying about it too much. I would suspect, however, that a stiffer than stock spring would offer improved performance, we just don't know how much stiffer. I remember a red Festiva project at FMS that was running their cam and had different valve springs .....SOMEONE there has the answers! You could even degree the cam if you had the timing events and an adjustable sprocket.

If you want to use stock parts I would consider the Aspire cam & rockers. Just because the cam has less lift or duration doesn't mean it won't offer better flow. Roller cams don't require as much and usually have a lot flatter torque curve and better drivability. It would also provide less friction and reduced oil temp, which is always good. The only possible drawback I could imagine is that the Aspire cam was designed for the smaller displacement (1.3L) and computer tuning of the heavy Aspire. My guess is its designed for low rpm torque and economy and may offer increased low end in a B6 and be weak in the mid to high rpm. This may or may not be correct, until someone does a dyno comparison that's all we have. There's no point in using anything other than stock springs on a stock cam. If the old ones are high mileage you may get some improvement by installing new stock springs.

If you want a custom Aspire roller grind, contact a cam manufacturer and let them tell you what can be done and what you will need. It may be easier to regrind an older mechanical cam since they have adjustable rockers.

With anything other than a factory cam you should really do a mild pocket port and port match to take full advantage. The other easy thing you can do is bump the compression by milling the head. If you want to get crazy, do a complete balance & blueprint, it all depends on where you want to draw the line. Especially since you can get a used BP for the price of a custom ground cam and double your HP.

thanks for the info. there is a cam re-grinder near my house that charges abou 150 to do a cam soo that cheaper than a fms cam... i was gonna get the aspire cam re-ground cause its a steal cam and can take more abuse. then stick the rockers on it to make it even better. the only thing that im not to sure on is if the hd springs will cause the cam to self destruct or not. i have done a full port and polish on the whole motor and getting a 4-2-1 header on it so it will flow good, it would be pointless to keep the stock cam in it...

[sasquatch]

ok im going to the yard in a copple of hours and need to find out if this is gonna work.... this is what i know so far: the aspire cam is a bit harder steal and is set up for the roller rockers and it will give you more power. what im still not to sure about:

will the hd springs work with this?
what are the hd springs out of if they will work?
what "type" of cam is the aspire cam, is it for more top end or for more bottom end/ torque?
do i need the rocker arm shafts?
and if it matters if the car is obd 2 or not?

[getnpsi]

Is FB71 on vacation? this is right up his alley. In fact he's brought up a cam regrinding service in his MD neck of the woods in a thread similar to this one.

[sasquatch]

ok i went to the yard and got the cam, rockers and rocker arms.... ill see if they fit now ans if they dont lol... i didnt know what they looked like so when i poped off the VC i was laughing... they look like skate board brearings lol... they are tiny...

[FestYboy]

yeah they are and that means there's a LOT of force being transmitted to the cam lobe (small contact patch).

[FestYboy]

ok im going to the yard in a copple of hours and need to find out if this is gonna work.... this is what i know so far: the aspire cam is a bit harder steal and is set up for the roller rockers and it will give you more power. what im still not to sure about:

will the hd springs work with this?
what are the hd springs out of if they will work?
what "type" of cam is the aspire cam, is it for more top end or for more bottom end/ torque?
do i need the rocker arm shafts?
and if it matters if the car is obd 2 or not?

ok, let's clarify, shall we?
the aspire IS a steel cam, the festy is a cast IRON cam (big differance in hardness)
the aspire can WILL NOT give you more power, it's parasitic loss is less due to the rockers. in all actuality, the festy cam has more lift/durration than the aspire cam.
the HD springs will work with whatever combo you choose.
the springs are supposedly from a VW engine, ground to give propper seat pressure.
the aspire cam is designed for smoothness and ecconomy (low lift, short durration).
all shafts are the same for all 8v engines (b3 and b6).
shouldn't cause any problems with either system (carb, OBD and OBDII)

[sasquatch]

thanks for that festyboy ok so the aspire cam will not give me power... would the b6 cam work with the aspire lifters and stock valve springs or is that asking for it? or should i get a re-grind on the aspire cam? anyone have a good cam grind spec sheet or somthing like that? far out chance but ill ask...

[FestYboy]

you'll want to keep the aspire rockers and cam together. i don't condone this, BUT i sucessfuly ran the aspire rocker/b3 cam/stock springs for about 8k mi with no descernable signs of wear. car felt great. then i got "smart" and tried it with the HD springs and FMS cam (bad idea).

i'll have to degree a stock cam one of these days (just gotta find time!)

[sasquatch]

ok so aspire cam re-grind it is thanks for all the info festyboy!!!

[FestYboy]

all you should have to do is have the base circle taken down an polished, and have a machine shop take the rocker shaft posts down to compensate so that you don't loose your propper lash (HLAs can only expand so much)

[blkfordsedan]

Make sure you ask how they are going to regrind the cam. I know that on flat tappet cams they usually grind a smaller base circle. That requires an adjustable valve train to compensate for the difference in height. I have never seen Aspire rockers, but I assume there is no lash adjustment? It could also be that they will weld up the lobes and regrind, leaving the base circle alone. Just make sure to ask them what you will need to do.

The next question is: What profile will they regrind it to? You can not necessarily compare the lift and duration between roller and flat tappet cams (or even two flat tappet cams) and determine which makes more or less power and at what rpm range based solely on lift and duration. It has to do with the amount of time the valve spends at or near max lift, lifter acceleration rates, lobe center lines, overlap, head flow and balance, compression (you get the idea). The cam re-grinder may be able to offer you assistance in choosing a custom profile or one that they have ground before. Keep in mind that unless they design and test their own cams they may not have the best advice. A lot of small cam grinders only grind using provided specs or a template lobe supplied to them by engine designers or companies like Crane, Comp Cams, etc..

Here is a link (if I do it right) to a good article that explains camshaft design in easy to understand terms. If not, just GOOGLE "camshaft design"

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/ctrp_0701_camshaft_design_science/index.htm

[sasquatch]

link is a no-go ill talk to the cam grinder, i know two of them so ill see what they have to say and how much they charge, what "grind" they say i should get and how they do it. if i get do get my cam done and im happy with the result ill ask for a spec sheet of the cam so if anyone else wants one i can get it for them ill call it the sasquatch grind lol... this may be a stupid question but will a diffrent cam change you CR?