how much power can you get out of a 1.3

[Advancedynamix]

Humble pie, whilst it is not the most tantalizing flavour in the world, it certainly has its place in the world for people like me.
Insert all "I told you so " comments here.

My "R&D" in the turbo b3 had come to a grinding holt last week when under normal driving conditions , a conrod decided it wanted to see what the bottom of the sump looked like.
And with a loud group of bangs combined with a big puff of white smoke, the original b3 for the car had passed away, along with my dreams of building a reasonable b3 with the spare engine.
Now the spare b3 will be swapped in as a get me around engine.
And with great embarrassment, I say I should've just listened to those in the know.
I have already started saving some dollars for a swap in the near future. Still not sure what motor will be going into it, but like many of the other threads have stated, getting an engine already capable of making more power than a an exploding can of soda will be a good start.

I feel like an absolute pencil to have dreamed so high :/
But feet now firm on the ground, I shall move forward to a faster festiva.

Beazo

It's not a failure unless you refuse to learn from it. Thanks for posting so that others may also learn. We all see the high hopes and the dreams, but the story often fades away when things go badly. It's great that your giving it another go with a stronger powerplant.

[FestYboy]

If the head is coming off for any kind of porting, you HAVE to get rid of the shelf on the short side, it's a huge restriction.

[TominMO]

Will a 1.6 exhaust manifold be a bolt on affair worth going for -- especially if cleaned up and port matched -- or will the same results be had from a stock 1.3 exhaust manifold -- and from there going to a 2 inch pipe

The gen1 323/Tracer (1986-89) exhaust manifold will bolt up. It should provide somewhat better flow. I would use the 323 exhaust manifold gasket, and try to mildly port-match the Festiva head to it.

[blowby]

As far as cam work--when Matt D did the cams in my 1.3 and 1.6, he had to go to manually-adjusted rockers for clearance, because of the extra lobe lift he designed in. Also, my motors are now interference motors, for that reason. For most people, I would recommend keeping the lobe profile stock, which lets you retain the HLAs if you have them. Depending on how much power you wanted, you could still go to larger valves for more flow, but that's where you start dumping $$$ into the project. A simple valve job and cleanup of the combustion chambers, and the intake and exhaust runners, would give a lot of bang for buck. Then turbo that. You could just slap a turbo on a completely stock motor, for sure, and it would be great fun; but you'd be even happier with some basic-level head work.

Fuel mileage will not suffer much or at all, if you are just cruising on the hwy, depending on your turbo choice. I had Greg use one that kept me out of boost until about 3000 RPM, so I could drive non-boosted normally, and just use the turbo for when I needed maximum acceleration.

Like every stop sign.....:-)

-
Will a 1.6 exhaust manifold be a bolt on affair worth going for -- especially if cleaned up and port matched -- or will the same results be had from a stock 1.3 exhaust manifold -- and from there going to a 2 inch pipe

[Team Lightning]

Nothing wrong with dreaming, it's just that the b3 needs lots of money pumped into it to survive if it's driven hard under boost. You did nothing to feel bad about. We all have those, "I'll do it my way and... moments. I've done it, most people have. Keep your head up and say, I tried!

[beazo]

Humble pie, whilst it is not the most tantalizing flavour in the world, it certainly has its place in the world for people like me.
Insert all "I told you so " comments here.

My "R&D" in the turbo b3 had come to a grinding holt last week when under normal driving conditions , a conrod decided it wanted to see what the bottom of the sump looked like.
And with a loud group of bangs combined with a big puff of white smoke, the original b3 for the car had passed away, along with my dreams of building a reasonable b3 with the spare engine.
Now the spare b3 will be swapped in as a get me around engine.
And with great embarrassment, I say I should've just listened to those in the know.
I have already started saving some dollars for a swap in the near future. Still not sure what motor will be going into it, but like many of the other threads have stated, getting an engine already capable of making more power than a an exploding can of soda will be a good start.

I feel like an absolute pencil to have dreamed so high :/
But feet now firm on the ground, I shall move forward to a faster festiva.

Beazo

[Advancedynamix]

The excess crank pressure is then vented to atmosphere, yes. Piston rings are pressure sensitive. They rely on the pressure differential to seal. When an engines crankcase becomes pressurized, the rings don't seal properly. This contributes to more blowby and more oil consumption, as well as less efficiency (due to lower dynamic compression.) The hot combustion gasses and fuel vapors also break down the oil faster, superheats the oil and can lead to frothing of the oil. Engines with improperly ventilated crankcases wear faster and are less reliable. Many modern boosted engines have had air oil separator problems because it's hard to develop a system that meets EPA guidelines and flows the amount of air necessary to promote proper breathing of the bottom end. I've developed crank ventilation systems for several companies on European cars. I was delighted to see that the b6t was set up for a proper system from the get go.

[bhearts]

Yes.

So you collect the oil and it runs back into the oil pan. But what about the exhaust gas that is getting into the crank case. Is that what is vented to atmosphere?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Advancedynamix]

Yes.

[bhearts]

so i see three lines going into your oil seperator. one to the valve cover, right side goes to the block, left side goes to atmosphere? and a bottom line that feeds back to the pan?

[Advancedynamix]

You can make your own separator. Basically just a baffle system designed to wick the oil from the air and then the oil returns to the pan via gravity. A good quality auto draining catch can should do the trick. I make my own separators. Here is one I made for my b6t.


It's mounted to the firewall. The b6t already has ports in the block and oil pan specifically for this type of vent system. This is because of the engine's competition heritage. The same design should do the trick on a b3 as well though.

1/2 inch fuel lines are not going to be necessary, so you can dedicate your efforts to other issues. You may want to make your own rods. This is for strength and to help lubricate, cool and stabilize your pistons. The b3 relies only on splash oiling to the pistons and pins, which works for 63 mighty hp, but falls short at double those figures. Heat buildup in the pistons, as well as harmonic shock loads are going to weaken your pistons long before you reach the flow limits of your 8mm fuel line (8mm line will support more than tripple what that engine is capable of producing.) I've run plenty of 500hp cars on 8mm line. The crank will snap on your b3 long before you top those numbers.
330cc injectors will give you the flow you'll need for 200hp on gasoline or 120hp on Ethanol. That's a pretty good starting point.
The b3 has a smaller oil pump and smaller rod bearings than its higher HP siblings. The engine itself is the same length and the bore pitch is identical to the b6 variations of this engine. If a guy was crafty enough, he could swap a miata crank into his aspire engine and machine a custom pump housing to fit the larger oil pump pack. This would ensure that your getting proper oiling under the extreme loads that it seems like your building this thing for. You'd still have to make custom rods though, because the b3 uses a different piston pin configuration than the b6ze. Since you have more time and materials than money, this shouldn't be a huge task. I would use forged aluminum billets to make the rods. Aluminum rods offer a bit of shock absorption. They have about 1/4 of a service life of forged steel though, so make a few sets at once so that you can swap them every so often and have the other set ndt inspected, heat treated, and rechecked for straightness for their next use.

[beazo]

ok, so popping a hole in the block isn't too hard of a job, I probably have all the tools to do that in the shed at the moment. a good quality oil separator though? could you elaborate on this any? (brand/style/size).
and since the bottom end is relatively stock at the moment, perhaps I'll look into internals a bit further.

I'm hell bent on getting this b3 to make power now (and reliably too).
I picked up some 350cc injectors today as well. and possibly already lined up a smaller turbo off a friend, which I should be off to look at tomorrow afternoon. ordered 6 meters of 2 inch, 304 stainless steel pipe for the exhaust, and the same in 1 and a 1/4 inch to make the manifold with a bunch of elbows too.

250lph fuel pump is on its way from Sydney, which leaves an fmu to be purchased in the very near future. going to upgrade to 1/2 inch fuel pressure lines as well.

and advanced, I 100% appreciate your honesty, and every bit of advice you give will be strongly regarded and taken with me through the build, and that's the same for all posters.

cheers, beazo

[Advancedynamix]

Nothing wrong with tinkering on what you've got laying around. I just wanted to state the facts before giving any advice.

First off, it's probably not a good plan to machine the pistons. They are weak enough as it is. You can remove a bit of material from the combustion chambers and run a thicker head gasket, but the b3 only has around 9:1 compression from the factory, so you really don't need much. You'll want to maintain a fairly tight squish area or you'll loose efficiency. Your copper head gasket idea should work, but again, don't open the squish area too much. Matt Dickmeyer has done quite a bit of research on the b3 head and may help you out with a good baseline number for your squish.
Now, your going to want to use a smaller turbo than the td04. I'd try a kkk K03 from a VW. They are pretty cheap and easy to find all over the world.
Your going to want to improve the block ventilation. These engines are very sensitive to blowby because the bottom end vents through the valve cover. This is not ideal for a turbo engine. You'll have ring sealing issues under boost. A port should be drilled into the block for this.
Like I stated earlier, these Mazda engines have very high quality rings from the factory. Any aftermarket ring you buy will most likely be inferior and it will consume oil. We've tried a lot of different packages from lots of different sources and nothing works as well as the original rings.
A good harmonic balancer will be much more beneficial than having the crank and rods balanced. These engines are not the most harmonically stable design. The rod ratio is not favorable. The b3 is less susceptible to the harmonic issues than the b6 and way less than the bp, but it's still a problem. You can probably make your own dampener or at least use one from a b6d or bp. You could possibly engineer a fluid filled damper if your keen on harmonics.
All fancied up, with stock internals, your looking at around 120hp that is somewhat reliable. There hasn't been documented results of any B3 turbo that has lived for very long. I've also never seen anyone properly vent the lower end. This is critical.

[firebush357]

I also enjoy Polishing Turds.

[beazo]

Wowzers.
I haven't really thrown anything into the mix through the last few pages, as I didn't really think my contribution would have held any standing for the subject matter (for the most part, anyway ).
If anyone wants to ask some questions to get this thread back on track, please flick them through.
I'll try my best to summarize what i can off the top of my head (computer issues, so I'm currently using a phone )
My goal is not power and fuel economy, nor is it to make the worlds fastest aspire.
To put it simply, I am a man who uses what he has. I don't have a b6, or chevy v8 or a veyron motor for that matter. I have a b3, and I am very lucky to have a past that gives me a very large skillset to turn my b3 into (by comparison to stock form) a little rocket ship. One of the main things I brought up is time and money, and to be fair, money is not the most abundant thing for me, but time is. And if I'm not at work, then I don't put a value on my time, as this is my passion and hobby.
Another way i can describe the way I'm looking at this project is by telling you about a video i saw recently, an old school machinist had a fine precision tool making vice where he needed a bolt to apply the pressure to hold the work piece, insted of using an off the shelf (commonly used ) product, he got himself a brass billet and machined away for a significant amount of time to end up with a very shiny bolt, with a multi faceted octagonal head that with all things taken into account, was entirely unnecessary.

Sorry for my own rant here, but felt that getting my mindset out there for you to hopefully understand will really help with the questions of why.

In short though,
I want an unnecessarily shiny bolt

Beazo