Cracked steel wheels

[sodikartracer]

What he is doing does not compare to co-piloting in a ralley race. They are paid and are PROFESSIONALS with tons of safety equipment driving cars that were designed to drive the way they are. I am sure that the people getting in the car are young and dumb and maybe impaired in there thinking for numerous reasons. I do not say the previouse sentence to offend. That car is not set up for anything other then normal driving on the road and if they saw what was happening to his wheels on the way down that hill I am sure they would change their minds knowing how close they are coming to wrecking or dying. It is a thrill when they make it down I am sure but as far as that being a closed road....do you mean it is night and no one is on it or it is actually a closed road? If it is just no one is ever on it....then he is even more of a MORON because some of the corners he is going around and the speed he is traveling would not allow enough time to react to an oncoming car....even if he was actually capabale of doing so.

My point was not that rally cars are better prepped than street cars or that the festiva was designed for "tooje", i was referring to the mindset of the people in the vehicle. Also, there are many, many rally car drivers/owners who are not professionals, amateurs at best, and are driving at these races out of their own pocket. The only monetary incentives are often only given if you finish well in the overall championship. Then those winnings are mediocre and are funneled back into the car for next season. Also in one of Chris's previous posts he writes I quote "NO TRAFFIC BECAUSE WE HAVE PEOPLE BLOCKING THE ROAD. Weeknights have little to no traffic at 2 or 3 a.m., and most people up there are up there for the same reason.", meaning these are closed roads.

Sodikart....here is a statement from your buddy from just a few months ago...I suppose he has gained professional status since this one.....
Omgloltokyodrift
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There are about four different roads to choose from in this area, and this is the one of preference because of it's tighter turns and slower speeds. It's more like an AutoX course, only getting to third gear two or three times. (Second tops out at 55 mph)

Exactly my point, to run at your local AutoX you need a car and a drivers license, No extra safety equipment required including roll cages/bars (although it is always safer with one) they even allow convertibles to run with no bar.

Great driving skills? I know I'm still new to driving. I'm still learning something new everyday. Whether it's sitting in traffic, or spinning the car around to make a U turn, I love to drive. I've only been driving for three years now, and need all the experience I can get.

Ahhh how humble of him. Just because he is "new" to high performance driving does not mean he is not as good or better than some racecar drivers. I saw my friend do his first race and he destroyed the competition despite being in a field of spectacular drivers. To some the ability to drive at that level comes very quickly and they are naturally talented.

quaddawg's car was running SUPER grippy tires. I saw that thread, and he wasn't running the low offset Diamond Racing wheels. His track width was much narrower and that made the car less stable. The race tires grabbed, the suspension hooked, and the car rolled. Traction roll.

I don't try and take people for rides. But I don't say "no" if they ask to ride. There's a bunch of rumors and stories going around about that car from previous passengers, so EVERYONE wants to ride, which gets kind of annoying. I keep within my limits when driving up there. I slow down a lot with others in the car, because it's not JUST my risk, it's mine, and the others in the car.

This just backs up what i said about Chris not driving at 10/10ths of the limit. I think he realizes this and that is why he does not push the limits with others in the cars.

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then he feels even though he stats he is new to driving....he knows what he is talking about and makes comments about Quad flipping his Festy.

I cant say if that is why Quad flipped his festiva or not, but cars foll all the time when an excessive amount of traction occurs during a hard side-load.

Then rereading the original post....this is not a closed course or road...it is just early in the morning and " there are not that many people driving that road at 2am "...according to him. All it takes is one....and that person could be dead. Like I said....who cares what he does to his life....but he is involving others.

You should go reread it, he states that there are people BLOCKING the road. Whether it is legally closed or not they aren't going to let somebody up if there is someone coming down. All it takes is one person who does not realize his/her limits to be dead. But as Chris states

I understand where you're coming from, and agree that if I was just going as fast as I could with no consideration for the other passengers, that it WOULD be a death wish. Everyone needs to realize their limits, their cars' limits, and the road conditions. Being the last of eight runs that night, and being very comfortable with the car and tires you STILL need to drive within those limits, ESPECIALLY with others in the car.

I do not disagree that people can get killed doing those very things, but if you understand what has the potential to go wrong those risks are greatly minimized. Many people die every day in accidents on roadways that have nothing to do with racing, the main reason, people are not paying attention to what they are doing. Somebody swerves, they don't react in time. These people have not taken the time to think about and predict what other drivers can or will do. Always expect the unexpected. They just hop in and drive. If they took the time to focus on things up ahead instead of on their cellphone or doing their makeup many of these accidents could be avoided. The key here, know what can go wrong and minimize the potential to go wrong.

[GenevaDirt]

LOL....whether the ralley guys are paid or not is not really the issue either. they are using SAFETY EQUIPMENT....rolls cages...harnesses...helmets....ect. Not to mention....thier cars are set up to do the ralley. I do not care how good he thinks he is....that is when it gets even worse because the person thinks that they are invincible. I think you have mistaken the whole reason I am posting this.....it is not for your friends sake....it is for the other people that can be in harms way when he is on one of his out of control rides in an ill equiped car that was never meant to do what he is doing. Even with mods it is still a Festy...although it is a great car....it was just meant to drive normally....so things will go wrong....just like his rims that keep splitting. He should take that into consideration before he allows people to enter his vehicle on these death runs. He could tell them no. No matter how much they want to they do not know the dangers...I guarantee! Show them his wheels!

[Mike McKown]

Years ago, on 1/4 mile paved ovals, there was a competition class for older stock cars. No special equipment allowed including wheels. Back then, it was common for the cars to pull the centers (spider) out of the wheels due to side loading. This, even with plain old bias ply tires which many of you guys have never seen. The rules allowed the stock wheels to be reinforced by welding in 1/8' flat stock from the wheel center out to the bead of the rim to prevent the cracking and tearing of metal.


When I was 16-17 years old, I drove like this guy somewhat. Pretty stupid thing to do but seemed like fun at the time. Glad I outgrew that stage. Even gladder that I was able to.



[QUOTE=BigElCat;
Has anybody here ever seen a cracked steel wheel other than in this video?[/QUOTE]

[MONSOON]

It's what hot rodders and off-roaders have been saying for many years regarding wheels; an aluminum rim can't be bent, because it will crack first. As compared to a steel wheel, which will bend but not crack. My own experience is consistent with this.

Has anybody here ever seen a cracked steel wheel other than in this video?

I believe FB71 already answered this question.

I said I have not had a stock wheel fail. I did not say I've never seen any wheel fail. If I still had access to the photo database within FMC (Ford Motor Co), I could show you thousands of pics of failed components, coupled with the data collected during their failure. I was involved in the investigation of the Firestone tire failures in 1999-2000. Long story short, I do have a credible background to qualify my comments. On what education and experience do you base you statement?

With this childs driving inexperience this is definately NOT how he should be driving his vehicle. If he really wants to drive like this he should take the time and money, set his car up properly. With the correct type of rims and tires meant for that type of driving and install a rollcage for safety. Go someplace run by professionals, PAY his entry fees and drive on a course that is set up for that type of driving. That way when he does something stupid or makes a mistake(which he will).He is not endangering anyones life but his own.

[edudu77]

I agree with Monsoon, save it for the track. I live in the mountains, narrow roads, creek as one of the borders of the road etc etc. Ive seen cars upside down in the water, on their side against rocks, etc. All it takes is sand in the road and he's coyote food. Get better wheels, a cage, a HELMET, and put it on a track...more fun than you could ever have on the street!

[Biglay5150]

On the roads hes driving on I dont think he would be alive by the time he made it to the creek. That road looks like a road in So Cal where I grew up called Little Tujunga Canyon. Its tight and stone guardrails. On the other side of those stone walls are 100 to 200 ft drops maybe more.
Tokyodrift. We were all young once and did crazy things. And our elders told us we were stupid and we argued with them like we knew everything. Hopefully you get the chance to grow out of it like we did. If I were you I would use the advice given to you here.
On memorial weekend of this year I lost a good friend. He was 22. He was 4wheeling his Jeep up in the woods when he slid off the trail a little. They got out and hooked up a strap to another friends Jeep. It was an easy pull we have been it the same situation hundreds of times. Anyway the strap broke and the Jeep roller over Only ONE Time and maybe went like 20 feet down. There just happened to be a stump there that fit just between his cage and it broke his neck. They werent do anything crazy or out of the ordinary. Ive seen people roll 6 or 7 times without a scratch.
Just goes to show you ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE at ANYTIME.
this could be you or your friends

[BigElCat]

So FB71, out of those Ford wheel failures, did you see any center sections that where cracked? Wheels fail, no doubt about it. It's just odd that a center section would crack without some other type of failure.

The center sections are stamped out of a flat piece of steel. They stamp steel because it doesn't crack like other metals. Steel will crack after being 'work hardened', like in a hammer mill, but hard driving isn't the same as repeated hammering. Just wonderin'.

[Biglay5150]

So FB71, out of those Ford wheel failures, did you see any center sections that where cracked? Wheels fail, no doubt about it. It's just odd that a center section would crack without some other type of failure.

The center sections are stamped out of a flat piece of steel. They stamp steel because it doesn't crack like other metals. Steel will crack after being 'work hardened', like in a hammer mill, but hard driving isn't the same as repeated hammering. Just wonderin'.

Have you ever taken a coat hanger or any other piece of metal and bent it back and forth mutiple times and then it breaks. Its just like that.

eventhough the tires are small, the pics you've shown earlier displayed excessive rollover on the sidewalls. that's an indication of excessive lateral loading, and when the sidewalls rollover like that it puts stupid amounts of pressure diagonaly across the rim (lower outer lip to upper inner lip). this might not seem to be the reason for the cracking, but remember that up to this point, evertyhing can still flex to deal with the stresses. what isn't flexing is the center of the rim where it mounts hard and flush with the hub. that area can't flex. that also happens to be where you're seeing the cracking, this isn't a coincidence (sp).

[sodikartracer]

LOL....whether the ralley guys are paid or not is not really the issue either. they are using SAFETY EQUIPMENT....rolls cages...harnesses...helmets....ect. Not to mention....thier cars are set up to do the ralley.

I understand where you are coming from, the reason i brought up the payment issue is because you brought it up. Yes rally cars are now required to have full welded cages, that are certified, but that was not always the case. My dad ran his first rally with a bolt-in Autopower rollbar. The reason the extensive safety precautions are taken with rallycars is they often run on gravel, at speeds in excess of 100mph just a couple of feet from trees and boulders. Yet even with those safety measures rally car drivers and co-drivers are killed each year. This type of driving in the video is quite a bit different from gravel stage rally. Although safety equipment would and could help save his life should anything happen, I don't always see it as necessary. (I think a new set of wheels is a must though).

I do not care how good he thinks he is....that is when it gets even worse because the person thinks that they are invincible.

You misunderstood what I was saying. Chris said it himself he still has a lot to learn, it was ME that said he was a great driver. That is based on what i saw in the video.

I think you have mistaken the whole reason I am posting this.....it is not for your friends sake....it is for the other people that can be in harms way when he is on one of his out of control rides in an ill equiped car that was never meant to do what he is doing. Even with mods it is still a Festy...although it is a great car....it was just meant to drive normally....so things will go wrong....just like his rims that keep splitting. He should take that into consideration before he allows people to enter his vehicle on these death runs. He could tell them no. No matter how much they want to they do not know the dangers...I guarantee! Show them his wheels!

What i originally responded to was the fact that people said he had a death wish and was an out of control MORON. Not the fact that the festiva wasn't designed for this type of abuse, which it wasn't. Im also sure that Chris is not the first person to break a wheel up there doing that, and as he said people do crash up there. But he also said that the people that are up there, are up there for the same reason, therefore i would assume they know the risks involved in the activities they are participating in.

[Biglay5150]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ikSIJaKRfw

[BigElCat]

Have you ever taken a coat hanger or any other piece of metal and bent it back and forth mutiple times and then it breaks. Its just like that.

Exactly! But did the center section of that guy's stock Festy wheel with skinny street tires flex to the point of bending, and then bend back, repeatedly. It doesn't seem like it to me. To work harden, the steel has to reshaped.

Awesome Rally Crash video by the way. It doesn't look suspiciuos at all.

[GenevaDirt]

Well I think everybody here knows how I feel about the way this guy is driving. But BigEl......if you are seriously trying to get people to believe that this guy or anyone else has went through all the trouble you are describing to create the video of the downhill run or of the cracked rims....you are starting to make me think you are from the same gene pool and should embrace your long lost brother.

[Pu241]

So FB71, out of those Ford wheel failures, did you see any center sections that where cracked? Wheels fail, no doubt about it. It's just odd that a center section would crack without some other type of failure.

The center sections are stamped out of a flat piece of steel. They stamp steel because it doesn't crack like other metals. Steel will crack after being 'work hardened', like in a hammer mill, but hard driving isn't the same as repeated hammering. Just wonderin'.

Have you ever taken a coat hanger or any other piece of metal and bent it back and forth mutiple times and then it breaks. Its just like that.

eventhough the tires are small, the pics you've shown earlier displayed excessive rollover on the sidewalls. that's an indication of excessive lateral loading, and when the sidewalls rollover like that it puts stupid amounts of pressure diagonaly across the rim (lower outer lip to upper inner lip). this might not seem to be the reason for the cracking, but remember that up to this point, evertyhing can still flex to deal with the stresses. what isn't flexing is the center of the rim where it mounts hard and flush with the hub. that area can't flex. that also happens to be where you're seeing the cracking, this isn't a coincidence (sp).

BigElCat,

FB71,FestYboy, and Biglay5150 have set it up for you!
As the wheel/tire rotates the force applied to it from the tire moves through both a min and max every rotation.
When the wheel/tire combo rotates into the position where the tire is maximally distorted(tire in contact with road) from the lateral force of a turn (inside turn or outside turn, doesn't matter) the wheel experiences maximum lateral force and probably flexes.
As the wheel/tire rotates to 180° of this position the flex/distortion of the wheel should be at a minimum or nearly zero, depending upon the relaxation rate of the steel/wheel combo.
So every rotation within a hard/high speed turn loads and unloads the wheel.
Load it high enough and often enough and you fatigue the metal and it cracks.
Another interesting fact the passenger and driver-side wheels/tires flex in opposite directions depending on whether its an inside or outside turn.
For example; Inside turn per the divers position, under these conditions the driver-side wheel will flex to the inside of the car, the passenger side wheel will flex to the outside of the car.
Go into a series of "S" turns and you will alternately flex the wheel to the inside and outside every rotation of the wheel.
Thus, in my opinion accelerating the fatiguing process.
What might be interesting is how many cycles does it take to cause visual cracking, or more importantly how many runs before a wheel fails.

[GenevaDirt]

Luckily....or unluckily....depending on how you want to veiw it, the wheel has failed to the point of noticing it when he has been driving normally and not on his downhill run with people in the car.

[BigElCat]

....you are starting to make me think you are from the same gene pool and should embrace your long lost brother.

YOU FOUND MY BROTHER?:p IMHO we're all from the same gene pool.