Advanced Suspension Mods

[Dragonhealer]

Wouldn't I have to bend them upward to do that? (raising the ball joint in relation to the control arm fulcrum point) The festiva control arms are very stout in that area and not only would they be hard to bend consistently, but it would most definitely weaken them. They look to be forged steel, not just cast steel and the section your talking about bending is very short, cold bending them would be difficult and heating them would ruin the ball joint. For me it would be easier to make my own control arms. Other members have built control arms for their Festivas, it's a very simple part. In the future I will most definitely make control arms, but I want to see how far I can take the stock parts first.
Bending the ball joint end downward would result an a more exaggerated angle on the control arm. Bending it upward would allow the control arm to rest more level with the ground.

Guys, maybe I've gotten too old, but I can't see how bending the control
arm up OR down changes the fact that the ball joint is still in
the exact location under the spindle and the pivot point hasn't changed, I can see how moving it fore or aft will change caster, but for the other I'll
need a picture

[Advancedynamix]

drooldrooldrooldrooldrool

Was she doing this lap after lap? It seems the chassis is slightly upset. lol.

[Movin]

The height would have to change. There is benefit however if the ball joint is
binding. I am right at that limit. If the height changes at either end it does not
matter, simple geometry. Some one mentioned changing the inner mounting
point, that would accomplish the desired effect just fine.

[Advancedynamix]

Guys, maybe I've gotten too old, but I can't see how bending the control
arm up OR down changes the fact that the ball joint is still in
the exact location under the spindle and the pivot point hasn't changed, I can see how moving it fore or aft will change caster, but for the other I'll
need a picture

You are right, it doesn't change anything except it restores regularity of the ball joint. Which isn't necessary on my festiva because I run out of wheel well before running out of ball joint articulation.

However, a custom control arm with ball joint spacer will correct the control arm angle resulting in a better camber/shock travel ratio. But like movin said, this wont affect the roll center, that would require a change in control arm pivot location, which isn't going to happen on this car. Right now the control arm pivot is properly mounted to fill the cars fenderwell but not exceed the room available (Mazda actually did an incredible job matching this). Moving the control arm pivot would require reshaping the fenderwell and moving the strut mount up. That's a lot of work.lol. If I do that it'll be in a car with some internal bracing

Here is a diagram to help explain the ball joint relocation/custom control arm setup.

With the spacer (spacing distance "A") between the knuckle and the ball joint pivot point the control arm angle ( angle "E") is moved to a position where negative camber will increase with suspension compression. This drawing is exaggerated, my control arm angle isn't nearly that extreme. If it was I would have made this part already.

[Dragonhealer]

drooldrooldrooldrooldrool

Was she doing this lap after lap? It seems the chassis is slightly upset. lol.

Yes, every fast lap, but these cars are at a full race build, no elastic in the
suspension at all except the springs and tyres, European Pirelli slicks in
full soft compound, the Hoosier A6 cannot compare to the insane
grip level achieved by these(1). Steady state 1.5 lateral G's were routine,
as were momentary 3.5 G's. The chassis suspension loads were so severe
that multiple sets of ball joints, rod ends, rod inners, hubs, axles, and
pillow bearings were consumed every race weekend. All the Touring class
cars were so affected as we had to run mostly stock parts and the spec.
weights were fairly high (ours was 3075lbs.)

After watching a full race Yaris run, it was decided that the Festiva might
make the ultimate closed wheel racecar.

(1) The soft compound tyres ( yellow ink ) were left over from tyre testing
at High Plains Raceway in 2010, we raced the 2011 season
on medium compound ( green ink ) as the GTS cars were eating tyres
too fast. These did not have materially less grip.

[Dragonhealer]

You are right, it doesn't change anything except it restores regularity of the ball joint. Which isn't necessary on my festiva because I run out of wheel well before running out of ball joint articulation.

However, a custom control arm with ball joint spacer will correct the control arm angle resulting in a better camber/shock travel ratio. But like movin said, this wont affect the roll center, that would require a change in control arm pivot location, which isn't going to happen on this car. Right now the control arm pivot is properly mounted to fill the cars fenderwell but not exceed the room available (Mazda actually did an incredible job matching this). Moving the control arm pivot would require reshaping the fenderwell and moving the strut mount up. That's a lot of work.lol. If I do that it'll be in a car with some internal bracing

Here is a diagram to help explain the ball joint relocation/custom control arm setup.

With the spacer (spacing distance "A") between the knuckle and the ball joint pivot point the control arm angle ( angle "E") is moved to a position where negative camber will increase with suspension compression. This drawing is exaggerated, my control arm angle isn't nearly that extreme. If it was I would have made this part already.

OK, that makes sense

[Advancedynamix]

After watching a full race Yaris run, it was decided that the Festiva might
make the ultimate closed wheel racecar

I couldn't agree more!

[Arnie]

Wouldn't I have to bend them upward to do that? (raising the ball joint in relation to the control arm fulcrum point) The festiva control arms are very stout in that area and not only would they be hard to bend consistently, but it would most definitely weaken them. They look to be forged steel, not just cast steel and the section your talking about bending is very short, cold bending them would be difficult and heating them would ruin the ball joint. For me it would be easier to make my own control arms. Other members have built control arms for their Festivas, it's a very simple part. In the future I will most definitely make control arms, but I want to see how far I can take the stock parts first.
Bending the ball joint end downward would result an a more exaggerated angle on the control arm. Bending it upward would allow the control arm to rest more level with the ground.

No, you'd bend the arm end downward. Basically relocating the ball joint closer to its original position before a car is lowered. Look at this rough diagram I made illustrating the relative position of the ball joint and the knuckle interface in 3 options: normal, ball joint/control arm end raised, and ball joint/control arm end lowered. You can see that by lowering/bending the control arm end it locates the ball joint/knuckle at a more optimum position, i.e. closer to OEM.




You made great diagrams, BTW. Your diagram explains exactly what would happen if you bend the arm end lower to locate the ball joint lower. Bending the arm down takes the place of a ball joint extension you have pictured. There should be enough articulation in the ball joint for things to still function properly, i.e. slot into the knuckle, go through the complete range of suspension motion without binding. We're only talking a few mm's here. I use Whiteline ball joint extension kits on lowered WRX/STi's and Evos.

As an aside, the whole "horizontal control arm" thing is just a very, very rough guide for people to get a ride height in the ball park of keeping things "good". The actual item that determines the geometry is the ball joint and its interface with the knuckle. Some cars actually have this in a lower position than the arm or even higher. For example, on the Festiva, you can see that the ball joint is actually located a few degrees above the centerline of the control arm. So having the Festiva arms parallel to the ground on one's static ride height already has you in the "bad" portion of the camber curve.

I like the idea of taking stock or stock fitting as far as they can go as well. Which makes a simple mod of bending the OEM control arm so nice. I did the same to my Peugeot to gain more caster. Bent the control arm end forward to relocate the ball joint. Here's a pic of the difference it made:





Pic of wheel position in wheel well before and after:

[Advancedynamix]

I don't see how bending the control arm changes the ball joint location. In order to change the ball joint location the distance between the axle centerline and ball joint centerline would have to change. The shape of the control arm is irrelevant to roll center and camber curve, however the length of the control arm is relevant. Now, your caster adjustment is sensible, but would be difficult to duplicate on a festiva control arm due the the shape and material used. This is why I would make my own adjustable arms. Also, the festiva arm doesn't extend 90 degrees perpendicular from the body, it angles slightly forward, making the bend less effective.

Your drawing needs to display wheel centerline and shock length to show how bending the control arm does nothing except adjust the working angle of the ball joint. The Festiva has plenty of ball joint articulation for all but the most exotic setups ( yes Movin, your setup is very exotic and a special case where the factory ball joint falls short, lol).
One other factor that needs to be considered is the placement of the struts upper pivot. Since the strut top pivot is much further inward than the ball joint, negative camber will continue to increase as the shock travels through its stroke, even with the control arm far past it's tangenal parallel point. The increase in negative camber is actually quite aggressive for a street car that was not sold with the intentions of high performance.

[Advancedynamix]

A lot of people are interested in the way I've modified my rear shocks, well, here is an example of the versatility of the setup.

There is an entire BP engine in the back, with other spare parts, tools and a pallet and a couple of tires. I just turned my rear spring adjusters three turns to accommodate all the weight. No rubbing.

[Nastiva]

My wife and I live in San Diego, Ca., We went to Mesa, Az, to visit Advancedynamix in person and his car, We are 50+ years old farts, when we saw his car, in my mind said "oh geezz low profile tires, hard bucket racing seats and low to the ground?' that gotta hurt my back and neck, plus wife hate hard ride car like my '06 GTO, So this guy let me drive his car, in my mind also said, "I have to drive like a race car that might be harder to drive and watch out for street roads, Sooo I drove his car.., My jaws dropped, everything I said in my mind is alll wrong! it's NOT a race car to me at all! This car is so DRIVE-ABLE!! This car ride so GREAT like a daily street car, this car is very quick probably little quicker than my 400hp GTO and ride better than GTO plus handle wayy better than my GTO! My wife also rode this car, She said she like this car better than my GTO, I LOVE ADVANCEDYNAMIX'S CAR! My wife gave me GREEN lights to go ahead to built our '93 Festiva like advancedynamix's car, 95% my wife WON'T let me spent money to built any cars I wanted in the past.. Now she's saving up money for our future Mini Rod Festiva, because it's not that expsensive plus she want to drive our future car... i have owned 48 vehicles in my life time, I think this is going to be my favorite car ever! I dream and cant keep it off my mind everyday since i drove his car about 6 months ago.... THANKS ADVANCEDYNAMIX FOR ALLOW US DRIVE AND YOUR CAR! YOU SURE MADE OUR WEEKEND TRIP WORTH!!!

[fastivaca]

Where's the "LIKE" button?

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

[neanderpaul]

Where's the "LIKE" button?

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

X2! That was beautiful!!!

Welcome nastiva!!

[Advancedynamix]

My wife and I live in San Diego, Ca., We went to Mesa, Az, to visit Advancedynamix in person and his car, We are 50+ years old farts, when we saw his car, in my mind said "oh geezz low profile tires, hard bucket racing seats and low to the ground?' that gotta hurt my back and neck, plus wife hate hard ride car like my '06 GTO, So this guy let me drive his car, in my mind also said, "I have to drive like a race car that might be harder to drive and watch out for street roads, Sooo I drove his car.., My jaws dropped, everything I said in my mind is alll wrong! it's NOT a race car to me at all! This car is so DRIVE-ABLE!! This car ride so GREAT like a daily street car, this car is very quick probably little quicker than my 400hp GTO and ride better than GTO plus handle wayy better than my GTO! My wife also rode this car, She said she like this car better than my GTO, I LOVE ADVANCEDYNAMIX'S CAR! My wife gave me GREEN lights to go ahead to built our '93 Festiva like advancedynamix's car, 95% my wife WON'T let me spent money to built any cars I wanted in the past.. Now she's saving up money for our future Mini Rod Festiva, because it's not that expsensive plus she want to drive our future car... i have owned 48 vehicles in my life time, I think this is going to be my favorite car ever! I dream and cant keep it off my mind everyday since i drove his car about 6 months ago.... THANKS ADVANCEDYNAMIX FOR ALLOW US DRIVE AND YOUR CAR! YOU SURE MADE OUR WEEKEND TRIP WORTH!!!

Thanks Chris! And, you are very welcome! I had a lot of fun hanging out with you and your wife! I'm glad that my car helped to inspire and motivate the both of you. I'm looking forward to your B6t swap, your car is in such good condition!

[DriverOne]

Welcome nastiva!!

Yes, welcome! And thank you, AD, for adding to the addiction!