Advanced Suspension Mods

[nitrofarm]

Hey just wanted to put this out there....Ordered from South West today & he "Price Matched" the eBay seller "High Performance Parts" on the coil springs,so I was able to save $10.00 per spring. Also per Charlie's advice I ordered the KYB VW Cabrio pn# KG9105 shocks and found them on eBay for $40.00 each shipped!
Thanks for all your help Charlie & Tweak. :thumbs_up:

[Die-Laughing]

Is that the right part number? I have kyb kg9130 on my list if things to buy.. Maybe I have it wrong. Good thing I haven't ordered yet. Ha!

[nitrofarm]

Is that the right part number? I have kyb kg9130 on my list if things to buy.. Maybe I have it wrong. Good thing I haven't ordered yet. Ha!

I have KG9105 fitting the Cabriolet VW 88-93 models.

[Advancedynamix]

I guess I dont know what you mean by "SAGGING" then. I think of sagging as the chassis sitting lower.Isnt that ride height? And I get the fact that if you were to physically move the pivot points you will change Roll Center.

Sag is the distance your shocks compress from the weight of the vehicle and load. Ride height is the height at which the vehicle sits at rest. Ride height can be measured in several places along the bottom of the car, sag is always measured at the shock absorber on a car ( motorcycles are a bit different here). "Droop" is sag in reverse, it is the distance the suspension falls when the vehicle is lifted. Droop is often measured at axle centetline to a common point ( side to side) on the vehicle. Droop is more of an off-road method of suspension tuning.

[nitrofarm]

Sag is the distance your shocks compress from the weight of the vehicle and load. Ride height is the height at which the vehicle sits at rest. Ride height can be measured in several places along the bottom of the car, sag is always measured at the shock absorber on a car ( motorcycles are a bit different here). "Droop" is sag in reverse, it is the distance the suspension falls when the vehicle is lifted. Droop is often measured at axle centetline to a common point ( side to side) on the vehicle. Droop is more of an off-road method of suspension tuning.

Thanks for the clarification Charlie. Next question: Isn't using the shorter shock on the rear beam the same thing as what off roaders do when using droop settings?

[Movin]

Even off road needs to be defined, the rally cars use a whole different setup than dune cars or desert cars.

For the dunes we need lots of tire, low gears high horse power and extra resistance to wheel hop and low ride height with long travel, some sway bar

For rocks and desert we need long travel, medium to tall height, low gears, narrow tough pliable tires and medium shocking no sway bar

Rally needs tough long shocks, tough traction tires light as possible , sway bar, regular gears and overbuilt everything!

Snow and mud have there own best set ups and all set ups will vary depending where you are.

Out here I like my droop to equal compression, I like aggressive tires with a soft tough side wall ( oxymoron cured with $$$ ) long travel and lifted with shock valving heavier than stock. Springs lighter and longer than stock. No sway bar. More rubber dampening than stock. This and all the above..it never stops!! there is always something to improve our car!!

[Advancedynamix]

Thanks for the clarification Charlie. Next question: Isn't using the shorter shock on the rear beam the same thing as what off roaders do when using droop settings?

In a way, I'm using shorter shocks in a similar way that limiter straps or bumpers are used in off road. Off road systems tend to require more adjustment range, especially droop and ride height, than on road vehicles. The rear of a FWD road car (even dirt road, like in rally) doesn't need to droop very much. Now, for crawling around in trails, droop may be necesarry to keep the front from teetering and lifting the drive wheels. Tuning FWD suspension for slow pace rough terrain is new territory for me, but I'm looking forward to learning the ins and outs of this as well. I think Movin would be the go to guy for any questions in that realm.

[nitrofarm]

Charlie got my Cabrio shocks today I'm gonna try & do my Aspire rears tonight with the Black Magic 120# 10" springs. Should I just leave the "Bump Stops" the stock length and test drive it?

[Advancedynamix]

Yeah, I wouldn't cut them unless your running it really low all the time.
On those Cabriolet shocks, you'll need to cut some (like .200" iirc) off of one side of the lower mount (the steel tube that the bolt goes through) of both shocks. If your patient, you can do it wit a hacksaw and a file, but make sure it's nice and square, or else you'll be putting extra stress on the lower mounting bolt. Put he short side toward the center of the car, so the shock body is offset inward. This is to allow the shock to clear when the rear suspension twists (articulates). I cut mine right to the rubber on the insides and then used spacers on the outsides. They haven't been contacting anything under there, but my car isn't slammed right now either.

[nitrofarm]

Charlie would it be ok leaving the dust shield on and just grinding off the OD to allow the adjuster sleeve to pass over it?

[Die-Laughing]

Thanks for the tips & tricks Advancedynamix.. I ordered up a few items to do my coilovers.

In the front.. I went with inexpensive but, new MK3 front shocks that I plan to slot for camber and all the southwestspeed coilover pieces. In the rear, kyb's for a MK1 as well as the southwestspeed coilover pieces. I stiffened up the spring rates a touch from what you suggested but, I want to run it low with aggressive wheel fitment. I'm going to machine top hats and look into making rear camber plates. I'll document it in my build thread. Thanks again.

[Advancedynamix]

Die Laughing, stiffer spring rates will give you a higher ride height, not a stiffer one. Spring rate determines the sag. For a lower stance, you'll want less spring rate. After sag the rate will be the same. You're vehicle weight is what determines spring pressure, not the rate of the spring. An aggressive ride is more about shock valving than spring rate.

Nitro, on the mk1 VW shocks you will need to grind the dust shield as it is not removable on the gas adjusts. On the Festiva gr2 shocks it must be removed, but if you cut the spring perches off at the welds then you can use the perches to help hammer off the dust caps. Atleast that's what I do.

[Die-Laughing]

Cool.. Well, I'll have to make it work. Thanks

[nitrofarm]

Nitro, on the mk1 VW shocks you will need to grind the dust shield as it is not removable on the gas adjusts. On the Festiva gr2 shocks it must be removed, but if you cut the spring perches off at the welds then you can use the perches to help hammer off the dust caps. Atleast that's what I do.

Charlie it came off real easy with a punch,but It wont pass over the welded portion at the top of the rod.Remember these are the Cabriolet Gas Adjust.

[Die-Laughing]

Die Laughing, stiffer spring rates will give you a higher ride height, not a stiffer one. Spring rate determines the sag. For a lower stance, you'll want less spring rate. After sag the rate will be the same. You're vehicle weight is what determines spring pressure, not the rate of the spring. An aggressive ride is more about shock valving than spring rate.

what determines the firmness of the spring? I thought that was the rate of the spring. I figured the lower the rate, the softer the feel.. The higher the rate, the firmer the feel. I want it to be firm but, not 350# firm like the ebay civic coilover springs. I can see how the rate of the spring would affect sag & height but, to me it seems like length of spring and adjustable sleeve would have the biggest role in height. If I relied on a really low spring rate to lower the car, it seems I'd have a really soft feeling low car.

I went with 200# 10" spring in front and 175# 8" springs out back. I plan on adjusting my height with the adjustable coilover sleeves. I'm looking for low street stance. I don't expect maximum comfort and I don't need it to be most efficient on the race track.