HHO Generator discussion

[FB71]

I have an HHO update.

One of the Plant Engineers (read 'handymen') here at the school has built himself an HHO generator, and installed it in a '98 Chrysler Sebring. He was bragging about the power, smoothness, economy... I asked for a demostration and review of his system. He gladly obliged. I found one part rather curious... Part of his 'kit' that he had purchased included an 'O2 sensor calibrator', which was nothing more than a potentiometer tied into both PCM Vref (+5v) and the O2 signal wire. He allowed me to connect a scan tool to the car while we went for a drive. The pot biases the O2 signal fat/rich, and the PCM responds by leaning out the system, perportedly to allow the H2 gas an opportunity to react with the additional unused oxygen (or so the theory goes). I asked if could diconnect and block off the hydrogen generator so I could get some additional baseline readings. 'Sure, no problem' was his response. During the concurrent test drive and data recording, we noticed a curious thing... no significant change in performance (up or down) without the HHO generator! No real change in sensor data, either. I asked him to drive it this way for one full tank of fuel. Guess what? His fuel economy didn't change either.... Apparently, it's not the 'magic' HHO gas that bumps your economy; it's running the engine so lean it's near meltdown that does it. He allowed me to sniff his exhaust, pre-cat, to see what his gasses were. HOLY CRAP!!!!!!! NoX was thru the freakin' roof!!!! I stuck a thermocouple into the exhaust stream, and it came back nearly 1400 degF!!!! It should be 1000 degF, tops!!! We reintroduced the generator, and the exhaust gases stayed nearly the same, with only significant change being about a 100 degF drop in EGT.

Basically, thus far folks, HHO looks like a scam. Its unfortunate, but that doesn't mean we should stop looking, either.

[FestYboy]

so what you're saying is, if you purchaced an "O2 calibrator" and tuned on a dyno, you could use the stock ECM and improve efficiency? wow...

your friend should invest in some sort of thermal containment/control materials for his pistons before melting something. i'm still waiting for better ceramic reasearch/materials to be available befoer i start messing with running my engine lean. though i hear that toyota, honda, and GM are all playing with lean burn mapping (at least durring idle). i'd like to know what they're doing to keep the reliability up (i.e. no melting).

[edudu77]

Okay...I can see that, since the potentiometer is just sending whatever data the computer needs to increase efficiency, and possibly reduce the engine to a molten pile of slag, but the VW that my friend is running is carbed, lo-tech...and it runs great on the HHO. I can see how your findings are relevant to a FI vehicle, but I don't understand how it can not work at all, yet the VW is getting better mileage, and reportedly better power. As of this time I have not had a chance to ride with him due to the fact that I live and hour away, and am a stay at home dad. The potential of him blowing me up, and a lack of rear seatbelts keeps me from wanting to take my son on a trip in the Bug. He did have one hiccup as of late...he was running a tube straight down the throat of the carb...bad idea...it jammed the butterfly and almost shot him off the mountain..DUH! He says he's gonna go straight in the manifold...hope he doesn't ruin a perfectly good car!! I am in no way saying this is the wave of the future...but is we all listened to the nay sayers and whatnot, we'd still be paddling about in wooden boats hoping not to fall off the edge of the earth. Once I have more hard data I'll definitly let you know...good or bad.
Donovan

Also...I would like to know what test I could perform on a low-tech vehicle to get hard data such as FB71 did on the FI car.

[blkfordsedan]

I recently purchased the plans to build the Brown's gas (HHO) "enhancement" system. The various user testimonials are very impressive. The claims made are that carbureted engines are easier because the A/F ratio remains constant while on EFI vehicles the added oxygen from the combustion of the HHO causes the O2 sensor to send a "lean" condition to the PCM, which tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Supposedly the mixture is safe and the added fuel is not necessary. (nervous yet?) The "lean" reading by the O2 sensor (caused by the added oxygen) is because the programming is obviously not designed for the high oxygen characteristics of HHO combustion and thinks this is a bad thing. This is why they claim you need the adjustable resistor on the O2 to keep the PCM from adding the extra fuel and negating any gains made by the HHO. (They also claim the HHO has a cooling effect on the combustion process and greatly reduced emissions). None of these claims jive with the observations made by FB71. They actually tell you NOT to listen to people who use scientific or mechanical knowledge to dispute it because they don't understand it, but rely on "real world" tests with "proven" results! Sounds like politicians to me....................
THIS SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME!!! They tell you to turn knobs and adjust fuel mixtures under load with no idea what's going on in the engine or any way to accurately measure it. I guess the key issue is to monitor EG temp? If the engine runs good, doesn't suffer from pre-ignition, the EG temp is acceptable and the fuel is leaned (increased gas mileage) then it is effectively doing what it is supposed to do. I will research it deeper as time allows. At this point I'm apprehensive about trying it and think I wasted $100.
Come to find out, all we have to do is inflate our tires and get tune-ups and collectively we'll save the equivalent of all the oil we would get from all the proposed drilling in the States!
Hey Obama, I would like to see the math behind that one too. Like I said.............politicians!

[lasvegascop]

I totally agree with the melting and over heating blah, blah, blah....If you have a good HHO generator which produces in the range of 1.5 to 2 liters per minute there wont be any over heating problems, of course you have to run it on a small engine. Geez, if you try to put a 1 LPM HHO production on an American V8 which sucks in 8-12 liters per minute a little 1 liter wont effect a thing people! Sooo....the HHO works great on small motors...if you are thinking about it or trying to research the area of HHO, go to YouTube and there's plenty of people that have directions and experiments from start to finish and to even running cars with gauges hooked up.

The generators I've found on eBay are worthless and extremely cheap! Cheap price=little gas=bad things happen to your ride.

[lasvegascop]

Look on YouTube for "Dry cell HHO generators" there's the answer....

[ketchup]

the way you go about hooking it up to power makes a big difference. using a 120v to 12v transformer wired backwards. so you make the 12v side the primary coil hooking it to an ignition module spliced into the coil signal. you hook the 120v(dont shock yourself it could kill you) side to the generator and it ends up with a 2 to 5 amp draw with way better production. ive done alot of research and came up with this, cell design is a big part too. i am currently doing this project ill let you know how it goes.

[lasvegascop]

You have to purchase PWM (Pulse wave modulator) which adjusts and cuts off the amperage and adjusts the actual wave that goes into the unit so you dont overheat the cell. Its around $70-$95 depends what the max amps your cell can do...

[getnpsi]

with our 1.3 displacement it will need much much less hho i ASSume than the 3 liter v6 engines, so i would think 30 amps would be fine to see if there is a measureable difference. i believe with the efi computers you are just fighting yourself, and this would only work on old carbed engines.

[ketchup]

/\ /\ im pretty sure you got it backwards. fuel injection will notice a rich mixture and add less fuel automatically. with a carb you will have to rejet. its mixture is based entirely off airflow wich wouldnt change even if you were to run straight H instead of air. maybe a little less fuel because H is less dense. and running a ignition module is practically the same as a pulse width modulator, but it matches production with rpm. just run a cooler

[CharlieZ]

The water car. http://www.flixxy.com/water-powered-automobile.htm

[b3 madness]

The water car. http://www.flixxy.com/water-powered-automobile.htm

Sounds too good to be true. Their diagram states that a "chemical reaction" separates the hydrogen and O2. Usually this requires energy of some source yet they state that no external energy is required. I would love a water car, so sign me up when available......but I am not holding my breath.

[worfdog]

Lye (sodium hydroxide) + water + tin foil = hydrogen. This is a chemical way to make hydrogen gas.

[FB71]

I totally agree with the melting and over heating blah, blah, blah....If you have a good HHO generator which produces in the range of 1.5 to 2 liters per minute there wont be any over heating problems, of course you have to run it on a small engine. Geez, if you try to put a 1 LPM HHO production on an American V8 which sucks in 8-12 liters per minute a little 1 liter wont effect a thing people! Sooo....the HHO works great on small motors....

the Chrysler Sebring in question is a 2.7L v6 engine.

[FB71]

oh, and hydrogen runs a stoiciometric ratio of about 6:1 air to fuel.

Therefore, 1.5 lpm of hydrogen to 8 lpm of air is a correct ratio for proper combustion...