Ethanol Free Gas

[pr0nst4r]

It's the ethanol. I used to work in lawn service and we had to buy ethanol free gas for our machines for this very reason, not to mention, you have to shake the gas up every time you use the machine because the ethanol separates from the gasoline. There are warnings about it in every mower shop in the Orlando area.

[FestYboy]

In Minnesota many gas stations(but not all) carry non-ethanol blended gas, but it is illegal to put it in modern cars. It can only be used in collector cars, outboard motors, snowmobiles, off road vehicles, etc.

and what's their logic behind that lame idea?

[gdawgs]

Is there any logic to 99% of what the government does?

[memovox2]

so does anyone make ethanol resistant parts? will that goopy rubber affect my 1990 Festiva? I dont drive it much - - any suggestions?

[DriverOne]

I'm not sure as to the goopy rubber, but I'll say this; my 88 Festiva HATES E10. It causes the car to buck and run hard, as well as refuse to run in the cold. I would say that even if the car isn't a "collector's vehicle" it should run nothing but 'real gas' because of being carbureted, before '90 cars... As far as the government, I'll put whatever fuel I want in my vehicle! They just want to force Americans to use ethanol-mixed product because it's supposed to be 'green' but it actually consumes 1.3 gallons of gasoline to produce a single gallon of ethanol (shipment, tractors, farm equipment, etc. to produce the ethanol), and to say it gives people jobs is, in my opinion, a farce. Who are they to regulate? If my car runs better on deer urine, that's what goes in the tank! I've even thought of using Daniel Dingel's idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw

[Pu241]

It's the ethanol. I used to work in lawn service and we had to buy ethanol free gas for our machines for this very reason, not to mention, you have to shake the gas up every time you use the machine because the ethanol separates from the gasoline. There are warnings about it in every mower shop in the Orlando area.

It should Not be the ethanol.
No matter how much I hate ethanol in the gasoline supply I can't blame it on the ethanol.
Automotive fuel systems were all converted to alcohol resistant materials long ago, as I've previously stated.
Now it is possible that an after market part supplier used non OEM certified components which were not alcohol resistant and a PO used these in a repair.

Why lawn equipment manufacturers didn't do the same I don't know.
Ethanol will not phase separate until the ethanol content reaches 15 to 20% and even then only under conditions of high humidity or temps near zero fahrenheit.

I would remove the goop on the bottom of the tank and seal it back up and continue to drive it.

[pr0nst4r]

Now it is possible that an after market part supplier used non OEM certified components which were not alcohol resistant and a PO used these in a repair.

That was my point. I have an 'A' to 'C' problem where I skip 'B'.

Why lawn equipment manufacturers didn't do the same I don't know.

They say that they can't because the parts are too small and too close to heat sources.

Ethanol will not phase separate until the ethanol content reaches 15 to 20% and even then only under conditions of high humidity or temps near zero fahrenheit.

HELLLLOOOO.... Florida! SuperHumid

[blkfordsedan]

it actually consumes 1.3 gallons of gasoline to produce a single gallon of ethanol (shipment, tractors, farm equipment, etc. to produce the ethanol),

As Conservative as I am, I have to respectfully question this! You may be dead-on correct, but I am deeply involved in day to day activities with a local Ethanol plant, one of which is the tracking of total GHG emissions of the production facility. Here are a couple things I know to be true:

Only a small part of the material make-up of the corn is used in ethanol production. The field corn used is primarily grown for livestock feed and is not taking food out of the mouths of humans. The ethanol process only extracts compounds from the corn that the cattle can not digest anyway, and the major byproduct of ethanol is an enriched feed that is contract sold back to the farmers that sold them the corn. The Ethanol is shipped out on rail cars (just like gasoline) to the blending facilities. Other byproducts of Ethanol production are used in everyday products like plastics and cosmetics. To attribute 100% of the resources used to grow the corn to Ethanol is not accurate.

The R&D that is being conducted in the Ethanol industry is leading edge. There is continual research devoted to extracting Ethanol from grass, straw, beets...anything that has sugar in it. The environmental impact and efficiency of Ethanol plants is also leading edge. The plants built in the last few years use a fraction of the electrical power, water, natural gas and emit a fraction of the GHG's that plants a few years earlier do. Some plants now are even "closed loop". They have a cattle lot next to them and collect the waste run-off from the cattle lot. Part of it is processed in to fertilizer to apply back to the corn fields and part of it (methane) is used by the plant in lieu of natural gas. The mash feed is then fed back to the cattle which eventually become the "Big Mac" you eat. Producing Ethanol is actually getting something more out of what we already use. Because of this, Ethanol is a great supplement fuel but is not suited to be anything more.

All this being said, I do not believe that Ethanol is the answer to our energy problems. The water consumption used in Ethanol production would scare most people. We have actually had proposals for new Ethanol plants in the area shot down just because the water table could not support them. There is also a cost factor that is borderline. With the cost of corn and the still relatively low price of oil, most of the plants are struggling to make ends meet. Were it not for Government subsidies, most would be out of business. I do not like the reduced mileage I get when I use E10 and avoid it when I can. I say, punch a hole in the ground and lets tap into the oil reserves we have in our own country. Invest the money we spend on keeping the Ethanol industry going on new oil infrastructures and refineries and on Nuclear energy to produce our electrical power. Leave the Solar and Wind energy to the Europeans.

[gdawgs]

I say, punch a hole in the ground and lets tap into the oil reserves we have in our own country. Invest the money we spend on keeping the Ethanol industry going on new oil infrastructures and refineries and on Nuclear energy to produce our electrical power. Leave the Solar and Wind energy to the Europeans.

Right on!!

Wind and solar are fun little supplements to play around with for now, but if the politicians(on both sides) were truly intent on clean energy, they would be focusing on nuclear. But for some reason, noone wants to touch it. If this cap and trade BS goes through, it will send even more of our manufacturing to Asia. Since many places over there have little or no environmental regulations, it will only make pollution worse as a whole. I work in a large manufacturing facility. Our utility bills total over $30,000 per day(and that's at a pretty deep discount)! Add 5, 10, 50% or whatever cap and trade will do, and it's even more insentive to keep sending our jobs over to Singapore and China.

[DriverOne]

As Conservative as I am, I have to respectfully question this!

Your questioning brought me to attempt to relocate the original documentation I was quoting, but I couldn't find it. What you said though was roughly parallel with the article, and if the technology is in fact leaps and bounds beyond what it was even a few years ago, I'll retract my previous statement. I did find a quote from a professor (though it's now quite dated) which states: Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels-not ethanol-are used to produce ethanol", Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can’t afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn’t afford it, either, if it weren’t for government subsidies to artificially lower the price". -Cornell professor in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. Pimentel, who chaired a U.S. Department of Energy panel that investigated the energetics, economics and environmental aspects of ethanol production several years ago. http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

So really, no arguement. I just hope this technology will do something for the industry, but after seeing a car run on water, I'm seeing a solution to the "use water to grow corn to make ethanol" problem.

[DriverOne]

Right on!!

Wind and solar are fun little supplements to play around with for now, but if the politicians(on both sides) were truly intent on clean energy, they would be focusing on nuclear. But for some reason, no one wants to touch it. If this cap and trade BS goes through, it will send even more of our manufacturing to Asia. Since many places over there have little or no environmental regulations, it will only make pollution worse as a whole. I work in a large manufacturing facility. Our utility bills total over $30,000 per day(and that's at a pretty deep discount)! Add 5, 10, 50% or whatever cap and trade will do, and it's even more incentive to keep sending our jobs over to Singapore and China.

We have no chance, do we? Are we so destined to be a 3rd world country? Anyone able to teach me Chinese? I think I might move... Follow the jobs, you know? Shi-shi America.

[blkfordsedan]

Right on!!

Wind and solar are fun little supplements to play around with for now, but if the politicians(on both sides) were truly intent on clean energy, they would be focusing on nuclear. But for some reason, noone wants to touch it. If this cap and trade BS goes through, it will send even more of our manufacturing to Asia. Since many places over there have little or no environmental regulations, it will only make pollution worse as a whole. I work in a large manufacturing facility. Our utility bills total over $30,000 per day(and that's at a pretty deep discount)! Add 5, 10, 50% or whatever cap and trade will do, and it's even more insentive to keep sending our jobs over to Singapore and China.

As a major supplier for Ethanol plant that I service, I must calculate and report the GHG emissions for each and every product I sell them. This is a "well to wheels" process that takes into account the total GHG emissions. For example, I sell them an electric motor- I must provide the GHG emissions it took to :

* extract and process the iron ore & copper that are in the motor
* transport the raw materials to the motor manufacturing plant
* manufacture the motor
* transport the motor from the point of manufacturing to my door
* Calculate the emissions of my store in terms of electric & natural gas and apply the
appropriate percentage to the electric motor based on the resale price vs. the total
annual sales of my store.
* transport the motor from my door to the Ethanol plant
* Add in the emissions from not only the burning of all the fuels involved in the above
steps, but also the emissions involved in the oil extraction and refinement of said
fuels.

This must be done for every item they use, from ball point pens to million dollar pieces of equipment. This is a MAJOR P.I.T.A.. It has caused the majority of their suppliers to tell them "Thanks, but no thanks, we don't need your business". As you can guess, the suppliers that are left jack the price up to compensate for the added time and expense of providing all this info and because they can (Supply & Demand). In the case of Ethanol, the market price is set by trading and the plant has to absorb the cost increase. This particular plant has been doing this for about a year on their own accord. They saw it coming and wanted to get a head start. What do you think will happen when the government makes it mandatory for everyone? Yep, the additional costs will be passed on to the consumer (and this will be on everything we buy). Also, there is an advantage to the plants buying from the largest suppliers. The larger the customer base is for supplier and the higher the sales volume, the less GHG emissions get applied to every item they sell when you divide it up. This will drive the small business out of business. The REAL money will be made by the companies that do nothing but contract out their GHG tracking expertise to other companies and by the sale of excess carbon credits to companies that are over their limit (hence Cap & Trade). Guess who's positioning themselves with the White House to help design and run this whole program? None other than major Obama supporter and Liberal media owner General Electric! Coincidental????

[gdawgs]

I must provide the GHG emissions it took to :

* extract and process the iron ore & copper that are in the motor
* transport the raw materials to the motor manufacturing plant
* manufacture the motor
* transport the motor from the point of manufacturing to my door
* Calculate the emissions of my store in terms of electric & natural gas and apply the
appropriate percentage to the electric motor based on the resale price vs. the total
annual sales of my store.
* transport the motor from my door to the Ethanol plant
* Add in the emissions from not only the burning of all the fuels involved in the above
steps, but also the emissions involved in the oil extraction and refinement of said
fuels.

This must be done for every item they use, from ball point pens to million dollar pieces of equipment. This is a MAJOR P.I.T.A.. It has caused the majority of their suppliers to tell them "Thanks, but no thanks, we don't need your business".

Sounds like some goverment agency has too much time on their hands. Did they include the "greenhouse gasses" that the guy writing the report expelled(breathing and farting) during the time it took him to write the report? I'm afraid we are heading down a long dark path.

[Pu241]

Ethanol will not phase separate until the ethanol content reaches 15 to 20% and even then only under conditions of high humidity or temps near zero fahrenheit.

HELLLLOOOO.... Florida! SuperHumid

Another "A to C" issue?
Note: The concentration of ethanol in gasoline needs to be between 15-20% before humidity or temperature may cause phase separation.
Note: Most gasahol is only 10% ethanol the conditions required to cause phase separation are likely much more extreme than for the 15-20% mixture

[pr0nst4r]

While a lot of the places say 10%, based on what you're saying, it is untrue. Every morning and after every lunch break or long drive, we would have to shake the gas tanks on the machines to remix the gasoline and ethanol. You can see when the separation occurs. I have first hand experience with this on a non-technical level (eg. I had to deal with phase separation on a daily basis in the lawn service industry). On top of that, my uncle, who is a boat mechanic, deals with the repercussions of ethanol + gasoline mix on a daily basis as well.

While your facts may be true, my experience leads me to believe that either they are skewed, or the gas stations are lying. I'm going with the latter as they have a track record of such.