Water meth kit help

[mikemounlio]

I am looking at adding a water meth kit to my winter build. I once again dont know much about them and would like some basic info.

How long would a 1 gallon tank last on a b6t festiva (50-50)?

Best place to mount the nozzle?

How about this kit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sn...FYVFaQodkHIBDw pros and cons of it maybe.


ANy info do or donts would help me out greatly. This will be my 1st water/meth exp

[Advancedynamix]

The usage of the water meth will depend on how the car is driven. The meth on Tweak doesn't come on until 6 psi and it progressively sprays more up to 16psi. If you drive around under 6 psi all the time it doesn't use any. I used to use about a gallon an hour on the racetrack.
You'll want to start out with the smallest size injector you can get. These little engines don't take much, and too much water meth is a bad thing.
The best place mount the nozzle is as close to the compressor outlet as possible if your not running an intercooler. If you are running an intercooler then you'll want to mount it as close to the intercooler outlet as possible. You want to give the water meth mixture as much time to vaporize as possible before it enters the intake manifold.

[ZephTheChef]

1. Do you have an intercooler?
2. What is your boost level?
3. Are you running gasoline or E85?

Water/meth nozzle sizing is going to make a huge difference on how long a tank lasts, and what size nozzle you need to run is going to depend on your charge temps and fuel type. Trigger point has a big effect on consumption rate as well. My Buick drains a 1.3 gallon tank in literally about 20 miles of driving around, but that's with 6x 3gph nozzles and a very low trigger point. That car is also nearly always into boost cuz twincharged.

I have used coolingmist and alcohol injection systems kits. I like the AIS kit better but their website freaks out sometimes/with some browsers. If you tell me what boost you are running (or want to run) and whether or not you are intercooled I can do the BTU math and figure out ballpark how much you want to spray...but in my experience if you're only spraying at high loads the more the better, within reason. If you aren't spraying direct port then you probably want to keep it a smaller amount to avoid puddling. Again, with the turbo information you can calculate how much you can spray and still get good vaporization. There are different purposes for injecting at different places but I would tend to agree with Charlie for maximum charge cooling. You certainly don't want to spray through an intercooler because humid air takes significantly more effort to cool...the phase change cooling you would get from vaporizing the water would get expensed back to your intercooler condensing it right back out so you definitely want to spray post-intercooler if you have one.

I prefer to intercool to the max prior to the water injection and then add the water/meth direct port so it can act to keep things cool on the compression stroke as opposed to just as charge cooling.

[mikemounlio]

I am going to have a fmic. I will be running with the rocketman ecu and will set it to 16psi. I want to run just 93 pump gas. As of now i have a rebuilt stock capri turbo. I plan to then upgrade to the hybrid turbo once i can park the car and ride the bike for a few weeks straight. On down the line i might go a big turbo setup but might not. If i do its a total redesign so the meth kit would only need to handle stock turbo or the vj11 14

It would be easier for me to mount to the intercooler piping as my welding is not that good and i dont want to chance welding to parts that would be hard to replace. Welding to the IC pipe would be no hassle for me.

[mikemounlio]

The car will be driven daily and will see the track maybe 2x a year. I would think i would want it to kick in around 10psi just so i can have some boost to play with and not drain the tank so fast.



Thanks for the info guys.

[ZephTheChef]

Ok, so I ran some numbers with some assumptions to get you a starting point. With 100 degree underhood temps (on say an 80 degree day) your turbo outlet will be in the neighborhood of 300 degrees @ 16psi. Since you say front mount intercooler I am going to assume it is relatively large for your HP level and therefore a fairly decent efficiency, but let's say 80% cuz pessimism so you'd only be at 124 degrees at the outlet. That's not a whole lot of water vaporizing potential, so you might want to consider going with a higher percentage of methanol (possibly even straight but I am going to say 75/25) because it will evaporate at much lower temps. You will be making something like 200-250 hp throughout the car's powerband, so let's call it 25 lb/min peak airflow with probably potential for something like another 50 degrees potential change in temp from water/meth. Dry air takes .24 BTU per degree per lb to cool so that would take 300 BTU/min of water/meth cooling. At 75% meth, 25% water that would be a half pound per minute, which at that mixture is 4.2 gallons per hour. Most nozzles are sized based on flow at 100psi and most pumps push a lot more than that (and the higher the pressure the better, especially if spraying so far upstream) so I would say 2-3gph rated nozzle might be a good place to start.

[ZephTheChef]

If you did go straight methanol to prevent the chance of being saturated/puddled on the water side since you will have such relatively low temperatures, I would say at that 4.2 gallons per hour flow you would be in the neighborhood of 10% richer (25 lb/min with a 5.5:1 afr means you need 4.5 lb/min methanol to meet your best power afr needs and you'd be flowing like .462 lb/min) so that's a significant enough amount that you may want to slightly adjust/lean your fueling up top. It's not going to hurt anything or affect your power that much and it would be a nice antiknock safety cushion...and if you lean it and the water/meth fails or you run dry then you could go dangerously lean, so I would just let it be rich. The math is linear so you're talking 5% rich with 50/50.

[Advancedynamix]

Capri with Rocketman chip on the VJ14 will only make 180-200hp with the water methanol. Use the smallest nozzle you can get from which every company you use. Set it to come on at 8 psi and peak at 16. You'll be fine. Mount the nozzle higher than your reservoir so you won't need a control solenoid. I've run this way on a b6t for over 60k miles with great success. It was a snow stage 2 kit, but they are all pretty similar. I've run Snow, Devils own, AEM and CoolingMist on my cars. I liked the AEM stuff the best, mostly because they used to offer a boost guage meth controller and that was slick. I don't know if they sell that anymore though as it was almost a decade ago.

[mikemounlio]

If you did go straight methanol to prevent the chance of being saturated/puddled on the water side since you will have such relatively low temperatures, I would say at that 4.2 gallons per hour flow you would be in the neighborhood of 10% richer (25 lb/min with a 5.5:1 afr means you need 4.5 lb/min methanol to meet your best power afr needs and you'd be flowing like .462 lb/min) so that's a significant enough amount that you may want to slightly adjust/lean your fueling up top. It's not going to hurt anything or affect your power that much and it would be a nice antiknock safety cushion...and if you lean it and the water/meth fails or you run dry then you could go dangerously lean, so I would just let it be rich. The math is linear so you're talking 5% rich with 50/50.

Great info thank you! Could you suggest a kit to me? I would like to have an easy setup. If i could set it up to the point that if i ran dry it would not be dangerous that would be the best.

How would you do the meth on a b6t festiva?

[mikemounlio]

Capri with Rocketman chip on the VJ14 will only make 180-200hp with the water methanol. Use the smallest nozzle you can get from which every company you use. Set it to come on at 8 psi and peak at 16. You'll be fine. Mount the nozzle higher than your reservoir so you won't need a control solenoid. I've run this way on a b6t for over 60k miles with great success. It was a snow stage 2 kit, but they are all pretty similar. I've run Snow, Devils own, AEM and CoolingMist on my cars. I liked the AEM stuff the best, mostly because they used to offer a boost guage meth controller and that was slick. I don't know if they sell that anymore though as it was almost a decade ago.

You seem to understand my setup rather well. Where would you mount the nozzle? I plan to mount the tank in the cab on the passenger floor up next to the center console as to keep a close eye on my levels.

[Advancedynamix]

On your IC outlet pipe, high enough so it doesn't leak out when the car is off, but as far from the TB as possible. The water meth is awesome for cooling your charge, but the effects don't stop there. To get the most out of the system it's best to mount the injector as far from the intake as possible. Mine is mounted on a manifold that I made right out of the compressor oulet, but I'm not running an intercooler. In fact, the system works so well that the car didn't need an intercooler when racing on 91 oct. fuel at 16psi in 110 degree ambient conditions. The power was more consistent than cars with front mount intercoolers and no water meth.

[mikemounlio]

Well hell i mainly want it just to have it. I also want the power! The b6t with chip will be fun but more is always better.

[Advancedynamix]

CLICK HERE FOR PICTURES OF WATER/METH ON FESTIVAS

[ZephTheChef]

I defer to Charlie on questions specific to this engine/setup. I am assuming then that the little turbo doesn't hold the 16psi up top if it only makes 180-200hp? I was figuring 220 @ 5000 and 250-260 @ 6000 just based on displacement, but if the turbo is out of air up top or the cam just doesn't flow there then I can understand being way off. I guess I probably shouldn't apply VE numbers like on a sportier engine.

Charlie, what do you think about his mix % since he is intercooled? I would think a much higher percentage methanol if not straight meth would be more likely to vaporize. The BTU capacity to bring that air back down to ambient is definitely there even without water in the mix.

[ZephTheChef]

Great info thank you! Could you suggest a kit to me? I would like to have an easy setup. If i could set it up to the point that if i ran dry it would not be dangerous that would be the best.

How would you do the meth on a b6t festiva?

I have this in the Benz. It is a really slick setup, but probably overkill. I don't remember if their float kit is included or if it's an add-on but it basically gives you a remote means of knowing when your tank is getting low.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/2619041...chn=ps&lpid=82

I have this in the Buick...a little more stripped down than the AIS kit.

http://coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.a...ey=Trunk_mount

I believe they both also have smaller fender mount kits. I would agree with Charlie, if you can run it without a solenoid or check valve that would eliminate a lot of sources of potential failure or leaks. I have had quite a bit of trouble with check valves. You also need to be careful with the vacuum line to the boost switch...if it gets kinked it can allow boost through that then gets trapped and keeps the pump active after you come back off the throttle. Not fun. I have an intentional boost leak in my hose near the boost switch just to prevent that from ever being possible again.

In related thinking, make sure you wire the trigger to ignition power not battery power, and also run the pump off a relay not the boost switch directly. Despite some of the switches claiming they can run a pump, I briefly had one installed that way one time and the switch stuck on after I shut the car down and filled the engine full of water. Had to pull all the plugs.