Experimenting with oil.

[navdoc101]

Did any of ya'll read any of the site I posted?
At temp. All oil is the same, at start up you need a thinner oil to do any good.
I use 5W30 High Milage oil.
Thinkin' about starting to use 0W30.

[nitrofarm]

99% of the time oil thins out when it gets warm.

Yes, the initial fire up is murder on bearings. They have oil? Yes. Oil pressure? No.

Thicker oil is OK, only if it's where it needs to be as mechanical pressures begin (ignition)

Rods ends always take the grunt. Mains are a bit more tolerable.

Between mileage, and tighter tolerances, thinner oil is becoming defacto.



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Multi Viscosity gets thicker as it heats thinner as it cools 100% of the time.

[ryanprins13]

Experimenting with oil.

Multi Viscosity gets thicker as it heats thinner as it cools 100% of the time.

What? Ever drained hot oil? Ever poured oil from a jug in -20? Viscosity of all liquids including Oil is measured in cst. A 5w30 is in the thousands at -30c, around 50cst at 40c and 10ish cst at 100c. The hths viscosity taken under high shear at 150c is 2 or 3 cst. The lower the number the thinner it is. Viscosity is the resistance to flow, so higher the number the more viscose it is. If you have time to read the link navadoc shared its a fairly good explanation of oil.


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[ryanprins13]

Did any of ya'll read any of the site I posted?
At temp. All oil is the same, at start up you need a thinner oil to do any good.
I use 5W30 High Milage oil.
Thinkin' about starting to use 0W30.

Its a pretty decent description of oil and viscosity there. The forum has a few whackos but there is a ton of info on that site. Ive spent countless hours on it, lol. A lot of good smart guys there and a lot of experiments documented, filters cut apart, oil analysis done...
By all oil is the same at temp you mean of the same viscosity right? 20 weight oils do have a huge range though, 5.5-9.5 cst. So a new 5w20 could be anywhere between those 2 numbers at 100c and still be a 5w20. Thats a big difference. 30 weight is a tighter range but 40 weight can also vary by 4cst. At high temp and high shear there is a fairly significant difference in viscosity between brands of oil. Thats why a lot of diesels take a 30 weight now. Under high shear and temp they can still hold their film thickness whereas other 30weights cant.
Ideally for a car like ours that specs 5w30/10w30 you want 10cst continually regardless of oil temperature. That technology doesn't exist though so we have multigrade oils so that we get thin oil characteristics in the cold and thicker oil characteristics when warm. But they shear so they have to be changed more often than a monograde. But any 0w30 is synthetic so they dont shear as fast as conventional. A 0w30 would probably last 12,000km in a festiva. And pumps way better in the cold and generally holds its viscosity way way better under stress/shear than conventional. But i believe it still holds true that a 0w30 synthetic shears faster than a 5 or 10w30 synthetic. Not 100% sure on that though. Synthetics last a long time regardless.


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[nitrofarm]

What? Ever drained hot oil? Ever poured oil from a jug in -20? Viscosity of all liquids including Oil is measured in cst. A 5w30 is in the thousands at -30c, around 50cst at 40c and 10ish cst at 100c. The hths viscosity taken under high shear at 150c is 2 or 3 cst. The lower the number the thinner it is. Viscosity is the resistance to flow, so higher the number the more viscose it is. If you have time to read the link navadoc shared its a fairly good explanation of oil.


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Yes I read a little of it, here is a small portion cut and pasted to explain my post-

MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS
"Multi viscosity oils have polymers added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.

Multi-viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi-grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter, base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter; in the summer, the highest temperature you expect.

[ryanprins13]

Yes I read a little of it, here is a small portion cut and pasted to explain my post-

MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS
"Multi viscosity oils have polymers added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up, the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C, the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.

Multi-viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi-grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter, base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter; in the summer, the highest temperature you expect.

True. Mostly. But you said earlier that oil thickens as it heats and thins as it cools, which isn't what this says but i understand what you meant.
I still dont see how your disagreeing with anything i said earlier though.


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[nitrofarm]

^ I stated Multi Viscosity gets thicker when warmed,not just "Oil". And sorry for the misunderstand of your post.If I took your statement "Out of Context" I apologize 100%. I thought you where comparing 10W20 & 10W30 when warm.

[ryanprins13]

^ I stated Multi Viscosity gets thicker when warmed,not just "Oil". And sorry for the misunderstand of your post.If I took your statement "Out of Context" I apologize 100%. I thought you where comparing 10W20 & 10W30 when warm.

Ok, no a 5w20 and 10w30 are quite different when hot. I was comparing 5w30 and 10w30 which are supposed to be the same when hot, so you go with the one thats thinner in the cold for best protection.
As long as you realize that a hot 30weight is still thinner than a cold 0weight and its just the molecular chains changing shape with increased heat to prevent the oil from getting too thin then were all one big happy family



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[ryanprins13]

update! i finished this oil change interval with the 5w20 and put 5w30 back in a month or maybe 2 ago. *I cut open my oil filter and it looked normal. I had no lifter tick at all until it had 4000km on the oil. That was the first time it started ticking at startup. *Then it became like twice a week till 5000km. after that it was more like 3 times a week in the 10 cold starts it does a week right up till i changed it at 6500km. Previously 3-4 times a week was normal with new 5w30 and it would get worse the longer into the oil change i went, ending up in every cold start. After i put the new 5w30 in its almost every startup. i installed an oil pressure gauge and noted the pressures with the 5w20. it read: 46 psi at 100km/hr and 47psi at 110km/hr
with 5w30 it reads: 47psi at 100km/hr and 48psi at 110km/hr. Thats only 1psi difference at cruising speed. My aftermarket tach reads 2750rpm@100km/hr and about 3100 at 110. It could be off.*
judging from this i think the 5w20 worked quite well for the winter. The pressure stayed up high enough, lifters ticked less, i had more power and better cold starts. I still will run 5w30 in the spring, summer and fall but i think i will use the 5w20 again next winter.
During the entire winter and the start of my current 5w30 oil i had the entire front of the car blocked off with thick plastic. I posted a picture of it a while ago, but headlight to headlight, upper rad support to lower rad support was all blocked. *there is a 3inch wide strip over the radiator i can slide over when it gets warm. Once it got warm and i removed the whole thing the oil pressure increased and stays at 49-50psi at cruising speed. The increased airflow cools the oil enough to raise the pressure. But my comparison pressures above were all done around the same ambient temperatures with the same rad blocker. *


one odd thing i noticed with oil pressures is the big difference in design between my honda D17 motor and this mazda B3. on this B3 the oil pump pressure relief ( pressure where oil starts getting dumped back into the pan after being pumped) is set at 50psi. pressure only would get to 60 psi cold and very quickly go down to 50psi while cruising at 65mph. it stays at 50psi untill it warms up and thins out enough to drop below that. The coolant temperature seems to very closely match oil temperature judging by the pressure. The coolant takes forever to heat up but when my thermostat opens is right when the oil pressure settles at the 46psi that it stays at no matter how long i drive with 5w20. once the oil is warm it drops to 10psi or whatever at idle and picks up very, very quickly as you accelerate, right up till it starts dumping oil back to the pan.
Now my honda civic motor is different. The pressure relief is set at 75psi, pressure goes to 90psi at idle for any cold start even if its fairly warm outside. doesnt get much over 90 as you start driving and it very quickly comes down to the 75psi. However the coolant warms up quite quickly, thermostat opens much before the oil pressure even drops to 75psi actually. it takes quite some time before the pressure drops below 75psi and then it slowly drops to about 45psi when the oil temps get to 212f. this takes about 25 minutes of freeway driving at 2800rpm though. and if you start getting the oil hotter the pressure drops fast, whereas overheating the coolant in the B3 has little effect on oil pressure for me. also accelerating from an idle the oil pressure rises more slowly on the civic but just keeps going up till you hit 75psi.
so the civic oil pressure starts off super high, oil takes forever to warm up and pressure just slowly drops down to just under 50 over about 25 minutes. The *festiva pressure starts lower than the civic, drops to just under 50 very quickly and stays there. but any engine speeds over a cruising level cause oil to be dumped back to the pan. it seems like a big waste of power, why design it like that? pumping losses are significant on a small engine especially when they are cold. can the HLA's not take much more than 60psi? or what would be the reason to dump at 50 psi if it makes more pressure over 3000rpm? i also would think that anyone running oil heavier than 5w30 will always be dumping oil back to the pan at cruising speed, which means less power and mpg.
so can anyone answer:
1 why are they so different?
2 why a relieve pressure so close to operating pressure on the festiva?
3 why do oil and coolant temps match closely on the B3 but are worlds apart on the civic?
Thanks.*



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[harpon]

I still think the car makers- now under more influence of big oil worldwide- have adopted lighter oils to lose viscosity faster and sell more product.
Doesn't lighter viscosity oil simply drain off of moving parts faster for a less lubricated start at any temp?

When I was cycle racing we used WD 40 on our chains we'd change several times a year (try that at oil conglomerate prices!) and for less rolling resistance
But if you want to protect a chain for more normal cycling you'd probably use oil.

[ryanprins13]

I still think the car makers- now under more influence of big oil worldwide- have adopted lighter oils to lose viscosity faster and sell more product.
Doesn't lighter viscosity oil simply drain off of moving parts faster for a less lubricated start at any temp?

When I was cycle racing we used WD 40 on our chains we'd change several times a year (try that at oil conglomerate prices!) and for less rolling resistance
But if you want to protect a chain for more normal cycling you'd probably use oil.

Not really. A 15w40 has a viscosity of about 15cst at 210f and 114cst at 100f. And an hths viscosity ( 300f) of 4-4.5 cst.*
A 0w20 oil has a viscosity of about 9 cst at 210f and 45cst at 100f. And an hths viscosity of 2.5cst.*
Keep in mind 210f is normal operating temperature of oil, 300f under high shear is a super hot overheating motor when you floor it, or a bmw working moderatly, or perhaps the oil in your turbo temporarily, 100f is a really hot day when your oil is 'cold'.*
The difference in hths viscosity between 15w40 and 0w20 is miniscule, but at that point the difference is vital. the bearings in a diesel recieve enough force that they will flatten the oil film at 2.5cst and rub metal on metal, but at 3.5 cst they are fine. Thats why no 0w20 in a diesel or high performance motor.*
But at normal operating temperature the difference is insignificant. 15cst compared to 9cst. Thats not an important difference in a gasoline car.*
The big difference is at 100f-45 compared to 114cst. Again, thats a really hot day, the difference is huge at 32f. All oil drains out of your main bearings, rod bearings, off cylinder walls At shutdown. Thick oil takes a little longer but its minutes longer, not hours or days. Remember the viscosity when hot is not much different from 15w40 to 0w20. They are bolth very fluid and drain quickly. A skim of oil stays on everything both from thin and thick oil. *IF (and thats a huge if) you have a good oil filter a bit of oil will remain in your valvetrain oil gallery. And i believe the camshaft sits in an oil bath basically right? It does on a civic, cant remember on a festiva... But anyway, it sits in oil, but the hla's have no oil and there is no pressure. Now when you start your engine after leaving it overnight you just have that skim of oil everywhere regarless of the viscosity you use. Thats good for a couple of revolutions, thats it. Then its all rubbed off. All Oils are full of anti-wear additives that help under boundry or mixed lubrication but the lighter viscosities actually have way more, because they rely on them. So, your oil all gets rubbed off and you have metal on metal until new pressurized oil arrives. The 0w20 is like pumping milk, gets there super fast, the hydrodynamic wedge is formed, flow is highish and everything is good after a couple seconds. With 15w40 its like pumping molassas. Its thick, moves super slow, line resistance builds up super fast and the pump starts dumping oil before theres pressure at the valvetrain even. You get high pressure but thats just a reading of resistance to flow, you have very slow and low flow. Takes longer to form the hydrodynamic wedge and there is more metal on metal contact at startup.*
While being pumped at 5gpm the thinner oil doesnt fall off parts that need to be libricated if thats what you were saying, everything recieves oil by pressure or splashing and it will get libricated better quicker with thinner oil at startup.*
The problem is when it gets hot. Its interesting to read the data and white papers on the 0w16 development. They are relying very very heavily on additives- friction modifyers, heat sensitive barrier coatings... ect to prevent wear under mixed and boundry lubrication. They know the hydrodynamic wedge will fail with such a low hths viscosity and their fix is anti-wear additives... I shake my head when i read that stuff, seems dumb, 5w20 is very much the same way, heavy reliance on additives, but their current trick is to make the 5w20 as thick as possible. 20 has a very large acceptable viscosity range but most 0 or 5w20 oils are right near the thickest they are allowed to be. Thats 9-9.5cst at operating temp. A regular 5w30 is 10cst at operating temp.*
This low viscosity at operating or high temp is all just a chase for better numbers on paper for car companies. 10w40 to 0w20 saves about 1% in fuel all else being the same on their computer models while your driving. Most of the savings are at startup where your pumping losses and internal friction are reduced on the cold start. Thats insignificant for the average driver but is hugely important to car companies with their CaFE restrictions when you spread it over the billions of vehicles sold. Its all in the name of better numbers on their computer models. All we actually need is an oil that stays at a constant viscosity no matter what its temperature or like a 0w40 or -8w30.*
And wd40 is terrible stuff for lasting lubrication, not sure what your analogy is there.
And i have gotten oil analysis done on 5w30 and 5w20 and the 5w30 deafinatly breaks down quicker. The farther the 2 numbers are apart the quicker they break down all else being equal. A 15w40 is good, only like 1.5 times in difference. A 5w30 has 6 times the difference. But you can only compare synthetic to synthetic and non syn to non syn for that. A cheap non-syn 15w40 could/would shear out of grade faster than a premium synthetic 5w30