Roll cage pictures needed

[Sid_RallyX_82]

FIA Article 253.8.3
Safety cages

http://www.fia.com/file/54650/download/17461?token=mQiBfplj

[Sid_RallyX_82]

Here is FIA
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[Sid_RallyX_82]

As a guide:
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These are NASA. Check the regulations of your specific sanctioning body

[Advancedynamix]

There are guys on here that have crashed Festivas just for fun. Fordfester has been using them in demolition derby figure 8 racing for a decade or more. They really do fair well in collisions.
The foot well area is pretty soft. Dragonhealer actually owns a car that looks fine on the outside, but must have eaten a fence post or sign post at one time and the passenger foot well was invaded by the post. If someone was sitting in the passenger seat, it would have been ugly. That's a really weird accident though. Kind of like the cinder block dropped from a highway overpass. You can't plan for everything.
On our LeMons car, we plated the passenger foot well with 1/8" steel. It's not pretty, but it'll take a hit.

[ryanprins13]

While not Festiva's, if you Google "rally car crashes" you will see LOTS of videos clips of similar size and shaped cars hitting and crashing into everything imaginable.

Lots of rollover pictures, hitting trees and rock walls, etc. -- from inside the car and from outside. Gives you an excellent idea of just how well cages work.

Watching rally car crashes on youtube helps a lot too. That way you realize how hard they are hitting and what happens to the car.
Its amazing to see those guys hit trees head on or sideways at 100mph, roll 20 times or nosedive into a solid bank and hop out after.
Almost as important as your roll cage is your safety harness. Your seat and what your harness attaches to cannot move! They have to be very well protected. If the bar your harness bolts to kinks or your seat moves your belt loosens and you hit stuff. Doesnt matter if your whole car crumples, as long as it doesnt hit you too hard or you hit it your good.
This is my all time favorate video i think. Guy trying to set the world record for the longest jump fails and nosedives. It really shows what a well built cage can handle. I recommend watching the whole thing but skip ahead a bit if your only interested in the jump. https://youtu.be/HWOANXNGrZc

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[Doug Brown]

While not Festiva's, if you Google "rally car crashes" you will see LOTS of videos clips of similar size and shaped cars hitting and crashing into everything imaginable.

Lots of rollover pictures, hitting trees and rock walls, etc. -- from inside the car and from outside. Gives you an excellent idea of just how well cages work.

[ryanprins13]

I have saved every photo of crashed festivas i have come across for the last couple years. I have been interested in how vehicles react to crashes for quite a while because of the job i used to have. I just skimmed through them all again after reading this. Festivas really dont do that badly in crashes compared to any other vehicle. Honestly. I think a standard roll cage will do you fine. All your trying to do is keep the cabin from crumpling, just like any car with a cage. And any other car is heavier requiring more attention to the cage.
Ill just share one or 2 photos. This is a caged ice racer. If i remember correctly this festiva was doing 70-80mph and t-boned a stationary vw sirraco.
This uncaged festiva here was rear-ended and sandwiched hard. Worst type of crash for a festiva. With even the most basic/rudimentary roll cage the passengers head would be fine. Perhaps even no roll cage and just a helmit.

Amyway, like i said, i got tons of these and they dont look much worse than other cars.
Ok, heres one of the specific area your worried about. Cant see inside the footwell but thats a real hard hit and it dont look bad from this angle.

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[Dragonhealer]

^ Of the parts you mentioned, the front wheel well/foot box area has me worried the most in a race build, still working towards a solution for that. In a street car, common sense, situation awareness, and impeccable car control are your best bet, same as a motorcycle.

[Sid_RallyX_82]

+1 on better technique and deliberately avoiding collisions!

Ok, lemme throw some money in this piggy bank (2¢, sorry, that was lame). I just so happen to have a fair amount of first hand experience in head on collisions. The first thing I'd like to say is Yes, Festivas are quite a rigid chassis in terms of cornering performance. In a collision, however, they do not hold up above 30mph. High speed collisions are particularly dangerous in a Festiva or other "cheap" car. If you look at the foot wells, the front lower rails attach to the firewall just inside the wheel well hump. This section is one layer of very thin steel. It is not strong under that kind of load and WILL collapse with a strong longitudinal force. If I were going to reinforce anything, that would be first on my list. I would not layer up plating for strength. Rather, I would design bars that will transmit that force behind the human occupant area (for racing, I would go just behind the center hoop. Daily driver, behind the rear seat). Another weak point is the HingePillar-APillar-RoofRail area. That section bends like a scissor jack when the front upper rail is crushed (same concept with the C pillar when rear-ended). Racing, if a cage is used, run a bar from where the hinge pillar and A pillar meet, diagonally down to the rear bottom corner of the door (good idea to attach it to the center hoop where it mounts to the floor. Also, reinforcement bar in the top of the inner door. Daily driver, just the door bar and continue it back to the C pillar, but I would find a way to make a crush zone near the back. This will also add some side protection, but may be a bit high if you are hit by something smaller than a truck. Reinforcing these areas will use more of the designated crumple zones, rather than your lap and head, but add a significant amount of weight behind the front wheels.

Some times it's a battle of
Performance vs Safety

Hope this helped

[Advancedynamix]

No worries Mike. This is an important topic to me as I have lost a friend who had a fully caged show car. He would have probably been okay if the car hadn't been modified. Your car is your hobby, not mine, but I want to add my .02 to help anyone who may not know about these dangers.

[mikemounlio]

Advancedynamix I trust you buddy! I have pretty much followed in your steps. Sure i try stuff out as i can but thats because im new and what to mess around. I take your opinions and words very seriously.

[Advancedynamix]

In autocross, you're better off uncaged. Make that car as light as possible and keep as much weight off the rear of the car as possible. If u think this formula makes the car push, you need to learn how to drive it. The trick to driving a lightweight FWD car is not driving it like it's RWD. With that said, all the maneuvers that FWD cars excell at are also the maneuvers that can help you avoid catastrophe in a sticky situation. That's why I'm such a stickler for driving experience. Spending money on performance driving is a bargain if it saves your life 1 time. I can count over a dozen potentially lethal accidents that I've avoided because of my understanding of vehicle control.
Adding weight and rigidity to a Festiva makes them more prone to instability issues. They get harder to control. Without lap data and controlled testing, the average driver may report improved handling because the car feels tighter and slides easier. Lap times don't lie though.

[mikemounlio]

This thread went the wrong direction! Not all car mods make sense. Sometimes people do things for them self and not others. Please keep in mind that not everyone here is modding their car for the track. I am modding my car for 3 main reasons. #1 to make me happy! #2 to have a fun to drive daily car #3 to have fun at autocross. For me the track is not life or death kinda thing so number 1 and 2 hold more value!

On the cage topic i fully understand what you all have said about the cage. I have my own thoughts on the matter but i will just keep them to myself at this point. I dont think i will make a cage at this point.

Just try to keep an open mind when it comes to someones build.

[Festiver]

I realized this 5 or 6 years ago when I started taking courses in frame pulling and started my obsession with watching car crashes on youtube. You are the first other person I have met that has said these things. Everyone i've tried to explain it to thinks I'm nuts. Cool


+1





I have been collecting photos and looking carefully at everything people post about festivas crashing. I haven't been doing it that long though. What I see Is that festivas hold up well in frontal collisions, and similar to other hatchbacks when rear-ended. Hatches are always worse when rear ended because the rear passengers are closer to the back end than a sedan. Festivas suffer less damage than newer cars in low speed collisions say under 30km/hr (most times the speed differential isnt too high because you manage to slow down before hitting or getting hit.) Where they seem to suffer at higher speeds is that the roof sometimes buckles downward instead of up, possibly hitting an occupant on the head. I haven't seen any festiva that was t-boned. Newer (say 2010 and up) vehicles use higher strength metals on the sides of the car. That way in a perfect senario the vehicle skids sideways without denting in too far. The new dodge dart was said to dent in 4 inches maximum if t-boned by a train, because it would skid sideways after 4 inches. However that is in theory in computer models. When they first started doing that (in cars other than the dart) there was none to little high strength metal connecting the 2 sides so that if you got t-boned and your opposite wheels hit a curb or another car or something the center would crush. An ideal vehicle for being t-boned in is light with a very strong cage. The festiva is light. You got one out of 2. The heavier the vehicle is the stronger the cage needs to be. I would rather be t-boned in a festiva than in a lincoln continental of the same era.

To be accident free 99% gaurenteed you need:
1 to pay full attention
2 be a half decent driver (some people cant drive even while paying attention)
3 know what your car can do
4 drive within what your car can do

driving a festiva and realizing if you hit something you may die gives you #1, its the most important. By that I mean I watch my rearview mirror when slowing down, look both ways before going when the light turns green or a 4 way stop, when going straight through a green look to see if anyone's gonna run their light, paying attention to the people driving not only in front of you but also beside and behind. Pay attention to your exits while driving, always be thinking about if you have to avoid something which ditch is better to take, how wide is the shoulder, anyone around me i would hit if i swerved, is there a semi behind me that would hit me if i stomped on the brakes and so on. Driving takes a lot of concentration. When paying attention like that most collisions that would not have been your fault can also be avoided. I was hit once though. In a 2005 civic. I was stopped on a highway waiting for oncoming traffic to go by so I could turn left and someone didnt see me and rear ended me still doing 65mph. I saw it coming but the best choice was to stay put and hope she saw me. She swerved a little but didnt even brake. If i had had passengers in the back best choice would have been foot off the brake to avoid crumpling, but I didnt so best choice was foot hard on the brake to reduce whiplash. Both cars were destroyed and we were sore for a while.
Anyhow, people around me are always buying trucks because 'their so safe!' what that does first is cause them to pay less attention because they have a false sense of security. I generally show this video to show its false. This is perfectly controlled at only 60km/hr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wb66PzljP8

This is a video of crashing a smart car and a geo metro ish thing into a concrete barrier at 70mph. not too much metal intruded into the passenger area, geo metro thingy faired better than the smart car. I can gaurentee the driver would have been crushed in a pickup or with a semi with a taller wall. internal injuries from stopping that fast would kill the car guys though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iKGfo1wmOM

volvo getting t-boned. Its not bad, but dont kid yourself, its not good. This is an ideal collision, no speeding by pickup and volvo not moving or being hit again. There are usually secondary collisions, like hitting another car, lightpost, curb, building. A bigger car is no substitute for paying good attention. pause the video at about 24 seconds and have a good look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrlE1TXJvuY

Ok thank you again I wasn't looking for a substitute for paying attention more of a fail-safe because no one is perfect and I'd rather be safe then sorry but thank you I'll leave the festiva alone cage wise

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[WTFestiva]

were'e likely beating a dead horse at this time but I've got a cage and I'll give my $0.02

Here's what we did (Facebook Album)

I like having the cage, and I drive my car often (when i've got it running...).
- +1 about not getting cocky because you have a cage.
- I've hit my head on it playing around in a field before, hurts like hell, and I'd invest in some SFI 45.1 cage padding, stuff still hurts but it wont crack your head open.
- these cages can resonate at different speeds making it louder than all get out in your car at certain speeds, ours is around 65mph.
- In Rally, it used to be we weren't allowed to add any bars to the engine bay to maintain some of the crumple zones, be careful about adding too much support on the front fork.
- Make sure your harness is at the right angle, don't attach it more than 10º angle below your shoulders, but I think you've already got that idea right
- like seat belts, with any crash where it's pulled on, you need to replace the webbing. The harness will give a bit but burns out after a decent wreck. It's often overlooked; It shouldn't be.
- if you go 5pt harness make sure your lap belts (all belts) are tight; seriously, I still have bad flashbacks about when i learned about loose lap belts...