High idle & overheating

[squeethebee]

Hey guys, I looked through some threads about it, but most others either have a carburetor, no tach or an automatic transmission.

I can tell you the RPM's in my 1990 Festiva 5 speed never drop below 1,500 rpm, and it sometimes idles as high as 3,000 rpm. As this is my first Festiva, hell my first Ford, I have no idea where to start looking!

I only recently got the car, so I will be going through and doing a bunch of maintenance things before I start driving it (as I need it to be reliable for my job), so anywhere you guys could suggest to me to look at or replace besides the things I plan on doing would be great and highly appreciated. Also any recommended parts would be awesome (such as with a Subaru, ALWAYS use OEM thermostat)

What I already plan on doing:
Oil/filter
air filter
plugs/wires
cap/rotor?
coolant flush/thermostat
top end gasket (VC?)

Also, on my initial drive home, the car ran VERY cold, to the point where it wasn't putting out anything but slightly warm air, but after stopping, the temp gauge would quickly shoot up. I was told by the previous owner that the fan wont come on, so how would I go about fixing that little problem?

Thanks for any and all help fellas, I hope to be driving this little bugger soon!

ed

[FestYboy]

start with a coolent flush and burp, then once your up to temp, adjust the idle via the screw on the throtle body. then go from there...

[batstiva]

I'm sort of tempted to vote for lubing the external carb components, and hitting the interior parts with some carb cleaner. Wondering if the idle isn't due to sticking/not moving as freely as they should parts.

[squeethebee]

Ok, I guess I didn't actually say it, but my Festiva is FI(fuel injected), that's why all the high idle carb threads were not helpful to me.

And I do plan on flushing the system, but the P.O. mentioned something about the fan not coming on, where could I start looking for a solution to that problem?

ed

[FestYboy]

Ed, there's a idle adjustment on the throtle body in your car. and realisticaly, it takes FOREVER!!! for my stock festy's fans to kick on (and everything works perfectly, really!)

so, flush and burp, and adjust... EASY! LOL

[squeethebee]

Ok, I will definitely start with coolant flush and probably a new thermostat while I'm at it. Is there any specific one I should use, or any parts store one will do?

Also, is there a way to test that the fan actually works with power before I let her idle for a long time trying to make them come on? I just don't want to overheat it and pop a head gasket or something.

And I didn't mean to second guess you, you clearly have more Festy experience than I (8 in your sig!)

ed

[JohnGunn]

Please read the first paragraph in the following post for my advice to new Festiva owners.

http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/showthread.php?p=309844#post309844

And now to your immediate problems.

You are right to be concerned if your engine is over heating. You want to do whatever is necessary to keep that from happening. Much harm can be done if you allow that to go on too long. In fact, the leaking valve cover gasket could well have been damaged by too much heat.

I don't think you should rely exclusively on the temperature gauge in deciding if it is, indeed, overheating. That having been said, it is probably a good idea to replace the thermostat if there is even the least suspicion it might be defective. I bought my last thermostat from a Ford dealer. It has a relief valve on it that the cheap ones at AutoZone, etc., don't have.

The best way to understand the fan circuit is to look it up in the Haynes manual. Using that as a reference you will be able to test the fan by applying power to the proper terminal on the fan relay. Also there is a sensor which tells the fan when to come on, so you could have a bad sensor and a perfectly good relay and fan which might never come on.

The idle problem is simpler to address. First, as has been suggested, you should try and adjust the idle to the proper rpm, 680 to 720. That should be set with the engine warmed up and the "set timing connector grounded." When you get your manual you will be able to find the "set timing connector," but until then you will be able to come close enough without grounding it.

If you are not able to bring the idle down enough, which is likely since the speeds you report are out of the ball park, you may have a defective "Idle Speed Controller". Another possibility is that a person used to dealing with carburetors would look at the screw on the left end of the shaft through the throttle body, as seen from the front, and think that was the way to adjust the idle speed. They would be wrong. That screw is set at the factory and is not to be moved. The screw you should turn to adjust the idle speed is on the top of the throttle body. It should have a rubber plug covering the hole that it is recessed into.

If you turn it all the way in and the idle speed is still too high, then, either someone has messed with the factory set screw or the "Idle Speed Controller" is defective. One of its functions is to provide for a higher idle speed when the engine is cold. You can do a cursory test of the controller by blowing through it. It takes very little air to provide for the increased idle speed, I would say about as much as you could get through a normal soda straw.

First you have to find the controller. Looking from the front of the engine, find the top rearmost rubber hose connected to the throttle body. Trace it down to the thing it is connected to. That is the controller. Disconnect the hose at the throttle body and the other hose of the same size that connects the controller to the plastic intake duct that connects to the front of the throttle body. Blowing through that hose should feel like blowing through a drinking straw. If there is little restriction to your blowing, it is probably bad.

A more definitive test of the controller is to disconnect those same two hoses, not at the controller but at the ends away from the controller, and plug the holes they were connected to with rubber caps that you buy at the pcv valve, vacuum connector, section of your local parts store. Once you have plugged those holes the idle speed is controlled only by the idle speed screw. That means it may not idle until the engine has had time to warm up. But, once warm, you should be able to set the correct idle speed and it should hold that speed. If you can do this with the controller bypassed, but not with the controller connected then the controller needs to be replaced.

By now you will have probably ordered your manual and will in future be spared the effort of reading such instructions as this, but until it arrives this should keep you busy.

Final recommendation. Do not put off replacing the valve cover gasket. After you do that, spend whatever time is needed to clean up "all" the mess that it has left. No single action you can take will do more to insure that your new car serves you well, because no single action you can take will do more to insure that you serve it well. That you won't find in the manual.

Good luck. Your gonna love this car.

John Gunn
Coroando, CA

[squeethebee]

John Gunn, you have replaced Tom Slick as my hero.

In all honesty, I have my local parts store getting me a Haynes since there wasn't a Festiva one in stock, and should soon have it. I do plan on fixing the VC leak before seriously driving the car as well, once I determine if that is in fact, what is leaking.

Thanks for all the advice, I will put it to good use this week as I try and get this thing sorted, so I can, as you put it, love this car!

ed

[squeethebee]

Got the Haynes, got some parts and will be doing some work on it tonite. Will post up whether or not she is purring like a kitten afterwards or not!

ed

[squeethebee]

Ok, so I tore into it tonite and this is what I found...

1. VC is not the cause of the oil leak, in fact it looks recently replaced. However there is still a bad leak, and judging by the coating inside the timing belt covers, the passenger side of the block and the alternator, I would have to guess it's a bad cam seal at the very least.

2. This little guy...



has spark coming out of the back side of it intermittently. Unplugging the number 3 cylinder (assuming number 1 is closest to the crank pulley) makes it spark just about constantly. I didn't try removing any other plug wires though.

3. Idle screw is turned all the way in, yet idle was at 1,000rpm, 2,000rpm, and below any numbers on the tachometer at different points tonite, always with the motor up to temp.

4. Radiator fan will spin VERY slowly when you give it a little push once car is warmed up, but will die out eventually after a minute or so. And won't come on itself no matter how long you let car idle. I had coolant boiling at one point just before I shut it off, so something is clearly not letting it start up or telling it to turn on...


Any suggestions on any or all problems? I have ordered timing belt "kit" and water pump, so I will be doing all that when I go to do the cam seal. I will be checking out the "Idle speed controller" as well, hopefully that's not bad, but I don't see anything else it could be. And I am completely lost on the spark arching issue, I don't even know what that piece is. Thankfully I have my new Haynes for some light bathroom reading!

ed

[Lil-Red]

Do as most people do, turn up the radio!

[squeethebee]

To fix the overheating issue?

Seriously though, as I am looking to replace the Legacy as my DD(which I use for work), I gotta get this thing as reliable as possible, the quicker the better.

ed

[JohnGunn]

Excellent. You've made a good start. I'll give my reactions to what you wrote.

I would have to guess it's a bad cam seal at the very least.

From my experience the more likely source of oil leaks in this area is the front engine seal. From under the car feel with your fingers up between the crankcase pulley and the oil pan to see if oil is leaking there. When my front main seal started leaking that is where it was coming out. You've already ordered the camshaft seal which I understand is the same as the front engine seal(you should check this to be sure.). If you clean up the area under the timing belt covers you should be able to discover exactly were the oil is coming from. If, as I expect, it is the front engine seal and not the camshaft seal, you could use the seal you ordered to replace the engine seal. I, personally, don't like to change something that doesn't need changing. The idea of not disturbing something that is working perfectly. On the other hand, others might say, do it while your in there. The call will be yours after you establish what is leaking.

2. This little guy...

...is the ignition coil, a very important part of the ignition system. Those sparks that you saw should be going through the dist. cap, rotor, spark plug wires to the spark plugs. That behavior you describe is not normal. You should take it off and give it a thorough cleaning. Use some break kleen or electrical contact cleaner on all electrical connections and see if that stops the arcing. This could be enough to really screw up performance of the engine. Last thought on this. As I recall you didn't replace the dist. cap and rotor. I don't know if a problem there could cause sufficient resistance to the flow of current to the plugs to cause the current flow to find an easier path to ground from the back of the coil, but cap and rotor are things you should replace, so do that before giving up on your coil just to be safe. Last + one thought. As you know electricity's sole purpose in life is to find its way to ground. It does this very well and always manages to find the easiest way to get there. So if the path to ground is easier out the back of the coil it will jump across that path, thus the sparking you saw. The normal pathway to the spark plugs should be much the easier way to go. So, if it isn't, the problem could be some extraordinary resistance in the normal path. Here is what is in that path.
1) Wire from coil to distributor cap.
2) Button in distributor cap to rotor.
3) Rotor to terminal in cap.
4) Wire from cap to spark plug.
5) Spark plug to ground of engine.

Before giving up on the coil you should check all these wires and connections for proper resistance.

3. Idle screw is turned all the way in, yet idle was at 1,000rpm, 2,000rpm, and below any numbers on the tachometer at different points tonite, always with the motor up to temp.

Since you say the idle speed was inconsistent I would hold off on addressing this problem until the engine is running smoothly. For example if your coil is defective, as it appears, that could affect the idle speed very dramatically. Maybe I should, first, ask you if the engine appeared to be running well while it was idling, but even then I would want the coil issue settled before trusting the idle performance to be accurate enough to act on.

I'll give my thoughts, but don't act on any of them at this time.

The engine idle is controlled by the amount of air that is allowed to bypass the throttle body. If the system is running properly, there are only two paths for that air to flow:
1) The idle speed adjusting screw. This pathway once set does not change and air flows through this opening at all times the engine is running.
2) The Idle Speed Controller. This allows air to bypass the throttle body in two cases.
____a) When the engine is cold it allows air to pass to provide the fast idle at warm up.
____b) Under control of the computer it allows air to pass to keep the idle from falling too low when a load is placed on the engine, for example when the air conditioner comes on or the headlights are turned on.

There are three other paths for air to reach the plenum. They are all error paths which should not happen.
1) Vacuum leak in any of the systems connected directly to the plenum, e.g. brake vacuum assist.
2) Leaking gasket between throttle body and plenum.
3) Someone has tried to adjust the idle using the "throttle stop screw" which is set at the factory and should not be changed.

There are ways to check which of these pathways are allowing air to bypass the throttle body, but since we're not ready to work on the idle yet. I'll save that for later.

4. Radiator fan will spin VERY slowly when you give it a little push once car is warmed up, but will die out eventually after a minute or so. And won't come on itself no matter how long you let car idle. I had coolant boiling at one point just before I shut it off, so something is clearly not letting it start up or telling it to turn on...

In 16 years I've never had a problem with my fan, so I can't give advice here with as much assurance as I'd like. I'll give you my thoughts, but before acting on them it might be best if you:
1) Read up on this in your manual.
2) Studied carefully the wiring diagram of the electrical circuit.
3) Search for all you can find on this site.
____a) Go to advanced search.
____b) Enter "fan" in keyword search.
____c) Choose the option to search only the thread titles.
____d) Submit search.

And now my thoughts. Sounds like the fan motor is failing. It's hard for me to imagine that the system would ever provide it with anything less than the 12V it needs to operate. It seems like it is getting some power, but not able to sustain its rotation. When something I don't fully understand fails, my first reaction is to clean it thoroughly. I'd be tempted to spray the motor with brake kleen to see if there might be oil in it that prevents it from getting good connections. Maybe someone will chime in and help us both here.

From your study of the wiring diagram you will be able to find the relay that actually sends 12V to the fan. It will have four terminals. One pair will be connected to a coil which when provided with 12V will close a switch, internal to the relay, which connects the other pair. If you unplug the relay and provide 12V from the battery directly to the wire that goes to the fan it should come on and run. If that doesn't happen, the fan is the problem. If it runs at full speed, suspect the relay or the sensor that activates the relay.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[squeethebee]

Oh man, I suspect with your incredible knowledge, and my willingness to do exactly what you are telling me to do, along with my slight understanding of mechanical things, this car may be almost perfect yet! I will post progress as it occurs, thanks again.

ed

[jtugfestiva]

geez no one has yet posted about the cooling fan not turning on properly let me help you since i had a problem with mines.
Ok since you mentioned that it only spins very slowly it seem as if your fan motor is shot. You can buy one on ebay right now for 50 dollors. you need to change it cause it will make your car overheat. For me i drove 20miles till mines blew the radiator and water pump but thank god it didnt blow a head. You need to change the coolant temperature sensor which is located near the distributer cap. Since the car is almost 20years old change that also and make sure you use the right thermostat. If you live in a warm place use a 180 degree thermostat. if not then the 190 is fine. I thought at first that my thermostat was the culprit but it was the fan not turning fast enough. if you can stop the fan with your bare hands then you know its not going fast enough. i hope this helps you.. goodluck with your festy they are the best cars out there for the money.