No Spark?

[TWO-FOUR]

thats ok JohnGunn.. and i totally forgot to try the carb cleaner due to you saying that i need to see what the light does and what not first lol but ok so heres what happened i hopped in turned the key on and the check engine light did come on so i turned the key and it fired up!!! But only ran for about a second or so and died but then when i tryed it again the check engine light would not come on at all... tried a few times but it would not fire at all and i also checked for power at the blue wire plugging into the coil and yes it had power..

[scitzz]

thats ok JohnGunn.. and i totally forgot to try the carb cleaner due to you saying that i need to see what the light does and what not first lol

Wait for it....wait for it....wait for it.....

[JohnGunn]

Good work. You have established that the computer doesn't recognize any problem with the sensors it is relying on. That doesn't mean that they are accurate in their work, but it does mean that the computer is getting information which it is using in making its decisions.

I would use this fact to hold off on replacing the distributor for a while.

I think I would next take advantage of the fact that the engine eventually gets to the point where it will not fire. I'm assuming that it ran for a few seconds before dying and then wouldn't fire at all. If that is the case you have a perfect opportunity to do the coil spark test and carb cleaner test while it is turning over but not starting. If there is not spark from the coil wire we should continue to examine the ignition system. If there is spark the carb cleaner should cause it to run for a short while every time you spray some into the plenum.

Report the results and await responses.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[zoe60]

Might check for 12v at the + side of the coil when it won't start and if it is not there it would indicate a bad ignition switch, not a bad ignition module. That's where the power comes in to run the ignition system.

[TWO-FOUR]

well id say the engine dosent really get to a point of not fireing haha since the only 2 times it has fired in the last year has been when i put the new coil on which was pretty much just a quick little sputter.. and this last friday when it just ran for a sec or two lol but yes JohnGunn that is the case.. the 1st time i tried starting it this friday it supriseingly fired right up with no hesitation at all but then died after about 2 secs and would not refire at all also like i said the check engine light did come on the 1st time but then did not.. i most likely will not be able to go to the car till next fridy again but i may try and swing up there quick after work one of these nights but i dont know.. And zoe60 are you meaning to check with just the power on or well cranking cause i did check for power at the coil with the key just in the on position... Thanks

[JohnGunn]

Might check for 12v at the + side of the coil when it won't start and if it is not there it would indicate a bad ignition switch, not a bad ignition module. That's where the power comes in to run the ignition system.

Thanks zoe60. You're right; I confused current with voltage. The ignition switch connects 12V to the + side of the coil. This causes current to flow through the primary circuit of the coil.

The Ignition Module controls the flow of that current through the primary of the coil by breaking the primary circuit and stopping current flow which causes the magnetic field around the primary and secondary coils to collapse and induce a high voltage discharge from the secondary which is routed to the plugs.

The passage from the Ford Service Manual which confused me follows:

"The module turns the current on between firing points to build up a magnetic field around the coil windings."

The Ignition Module is connected to the - side of the coil.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[JohnGunn]

well id say the engine dosent really get to a point of not fireing haha since the only 2 times it has fired in the last year has been when i put the new coil on which was pretty much just a quick little sputter.. and this last friday when it just ran for a sec or two lol but yes JohnGunn that is the case.. the 1st time i tried starting it this friday it supriseingly fired right up with no hesitation at all but then died after about 2 secs and would not refire at all also like i said the check engine light did come on the 1st time but then did not.. i most likely will not be able to go to the car till next fridy again but i may try and swing up there quick after work one of these nights but i dont know.. And zoe60 are you meaning to check with just the power on or well cranking cause i did check for power at the coil with the key just in the on position... Thanks

Let me explain the reason for looking at the engine check error light.

When you turn the ignition switch to the on position, all the error lights should come on. It does that so that you can check them and know that if one does not light it is because the bulb is burned out. When you turn the key farther and the engine starts the lights should turn off unless they are on to signal some error condition.

I don't know what happens to the lights if the engine dies with the switch on. but from your experience it seems they will retain the status they had while the engine was running. Also from what you wrote I would guess you need to turn the ignition switch off to start the cycle over again. If you just turned the key to start without turning it to off first the lights will just stay off.

The fact that you saw the light come on the first time you turned the key was enough to establish that the light is good. And the fact that the engine started and the check engine light went off tells us that there is no error code stored in the computer that we need to read. So there is no need to do any more with the engine check light.

The reason for the carb cleaner test and the coil wire test is to establish whether the problem you are experiencing is due to failing fuel delivery or a problem with the ignition system.

When I said you should take advantage of the fact that the engine eventually gets to a point where it will turn over but not start, I meant that condition provides us with the perfect opportunity to make a clean test. If you have a system that sometimes starts and sometimes doesn't, if you spray carb cleaner into it and it starts you won't know for sure if it is one of the times it is starting on its own or not. If you have gotten to the point that it will not start, and the carb cleaner makes it turn over for a while, you will know that the carb cleaner was what made the difference.

If adding carb cleaner doesn't make any difference one is forced to suspect that there is no spark to ignite the cleaner.

The logic is based on the fact that, if the timing of the engine is correct, and we know that since it did run for a short while, when you have both fuel and spark in the combustion chamber it will fire. Of course, if you spray too much cleaner into the plenum it could flood the engine and prevent firing, but a second's worth of spray shouldn't be a problem. To be sure, allow the starter to run for a few seconds, then try it a couple more times. If you don't hear any attempt at starting there is probably no ignition to fire it.

It's good that you don't need the car now. Many people, feeling the pressure of time, start replacing any part they think might possibly have anything to do with the problem. That quickly becomes an expensive and wasteful exercise. But, more importantly, you are not learning anything about the car. That approach has no interest for me. In trying to figure out what is wrong, you are forced to learn what happens when nothing is wrong. To me it's like solving a puzzle, but way better, because the prize for success is a car that serves you extremely well for many years to come.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[TWO-FOUR]

yeah i did turn it to off and try again as well and even walked away for a little while and tried again and after the 1st time it fired the check engine light never came back on at all.. so next time i am at the car should i just try the carb cleaner and see what happens or is there anything else i should check for as well?? Thank you guys for the help i really apreciate it.. i definitly dont want to just go replaceing things and just hopeing that one of the things i replace will fix the problem.. kinda like pissin in the wind ya know

[FestYboy]

so, after all that, you STILL didn't just clean out the dizzy with a $3 can of carb clean (that can be used for other things as well)?!?!?!

just start with the simple/easy things to eleminate them...

[TWO-FOUR]

no i did not try it FestYboy but when it first started acting up i did do that and did not help also when i went to move it from one of my old storege spots to another i did check for spark by takeing the cable that plugs into the disto and placeing it by metal and at that point there was no spark but that was awhile ago.. but i will be able to check for that again this friday because my girlfriend is comeing with me..

[FestYboy]

^ not yelling at you here, but just trying to push the idea of the simple things are the ones we least suspect.

[TWO-FOUR]

oh i know and yeah they definitly usually are.. so what does it mean then with the check engine light?? when it came on it fired but then when tried again it would not come back on or fire??

[JohnGunn]

Why do I get the idea you are not paying close attention to the suggestions you are getting? Could it be because you keep asking over and over what you should do without having done much of anything?

Forget what I've written, do what FestYboy suggested about cleaning out the distributor with carburetor cleaner. I've never done this, but I've seen a good cleaning work wonders. It may not work, but, at the least, it will help correct my growing impression that we care more about getting your car repaired than you do.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[TWO-FOUR]

all i did was ask what that indicated with the light doing what it did.... YOU WERE THE ONE who did state that i NEEDED to check the status of the (check engine light) FIRST!!! I did that and just asked what it ment and i also stated that i had already tryed cleaning it when it started acting up and did not effect it and then it was shortley after it quit running pretty much all together... wth have i not done other then try spraying carb cleaner in it and seeing if it fires??? I also stated there was no fire before but i guess im an idiot or something huh............... And how in the heck do you figure i keep asking OVER AND OVER what to do?? all ive done is repost back to what you guys have posted back to pretty much my original question

[JohnGunn]

Yes, you are right to be offended. You have come here for our help and we all have done our best to do that. But if there is some misunderstanding about what we expect of you, it is for us to make our suggestions clearer and easier to understand. Please accept my apology.

I have taken note of your complaint and will endeavor to make myself clearer. When this is settled and you are blissfully driving your Festiva around town, neither one of us will remember this part of the process. Now moving on.

See post #22 in this thread for my explanation of the check engine light test. From the results you reported we know that the light is not burned out and that the computer does not turn it on after the engine starts running, which would be the case if the computer had detected an error. So cross that off the list.

I'll go back to one of my earlier posts and extract, with a small edit, the part in it that I think you should address next Friday.

When a car doesn't start or even respond to cranking, you don't really know whether the problem is with the ignition system or the fuel delivery system.

You should check the ignition system by having someone in the car turn the key to activate the starter while you hold the wire that goes to the center of the distributor close to a bare metal part of the engine. If you see sparks the ignition is working and the fault is probably in the fuel system.

You should check the fuel delivery system by spraying some carburetor cleaner into the plenum through the hose that comes from the brake vacuum booster, the round thing that the brake master cylinder is attached to. Take that hose off where it attaches to the engine and spray about a second's worth of cleaner into the hole. Then quickly put the hose back on and try and start the engine. If it fires then the problem is in the fuel system. Take a can of carb cleaner on Friday.

Knowing the results of these two tests will provide very important information which will go a long way toward zeroing in on your problem.

I'll leave it at that for now. Others have given suggestions and you should honor their suggestions if you understand them. And if you don't please ask for more information.

I think I understand how FestYboy feels. When I make a suggestion of something to try, and the reply is that it was done at some time in the past, I wish they would do it again now, so that I know the results will apply to the problem as it exists now. Things can change over time and in the case of cleaning the distributor, there is little expense and no great loss of time.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA