Engine turns but no start. Symptoms and Solution included (fuel pump)

[walth]

so tonight I did a good bit of useless work but put in a fuel pump relay (yellow and black just above the hood release pull under the dash) and it fired right up.

I'll post back or try to remember to if I have anymore future issues.

btw, I figured out the reason it would "fire" but not run was because of the IAC bypass electrical connector being disconnected. Connecting that makes the cranking "heartbeat" consistent without any partial combustion, etc.

I am trying to figure out if driving longterm without the IAC connected is good, healthy, safe, etc... because plugging it in results in 1500-2000 rpm's...no matter what. so, I could have a bad IAC as well...unless it's somehow adjustable, which I doubt.

anyways, I hope my struggles will help someone

[walth]

it broke down on me again yesterday... sitting at a stop light, stalled and wouldn't restart. I went down a huge hill...and was popping the clutch in 1st and second, even riding it down the hill in gear at times and absolute no go.

I'm wondering if I have a bad ground on the fuel pump. because starting fluid starts the car...but after that burns off it stalls. or at least a month ago that's what happened.

[FestYboy]

sounds like a failed pump.

[Pu241]

I'm wondering about a stuck VAF.
If the vane doesn't move freely and doesn't trigger the micro-switch to permit the fuel pump to run this could cause the symptoms you have.
Easy fix is to pull of the VAF and check that the Vane moves freely, if not hit it with some PB Blaster and see if that frees it up.
Keep us informed as to what else you have done or any other symptoms.

[walth]

no, the pump is good. I pulled it and tested it, it works great. (edit>> that was a month ago...and I've driven it every single day since...and quite spirited too! and then yesterday I pulled up to a stop light and was waiting for it to turn green and it started going low and then shut off and wouldn't restart...did the same bs from before).

interesting about the vane...

how could it go from "free" to "stuck" when I drive it daily and it has so far fixed itself. that's where I fight logic cuz...everything works great but that one hidden issue somewhere. which is why I am thinking the ground or something somewhere for the pump to not turn on.

[Pu241]

Could be due to colder weather and clearances are now just too tight.
Besides, its free just to check and not really too much trouble.

[walth]

it was sunny/partly cloudy. I work til 130 am and we've had a few really cold (for an almost no heat festiva, that is!) nights in the 20's-30's and it starts right up. or if I go into work at 530 it starts right up when there's frost all over the car.

I apologize for negating. I have to get the car home first (later today with nate) and then look at it.

as far as clearances, are you talking about my VAF or something else?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

on another note, I'm 99.9% sure the IAC is faulty...but the IAC doesn't control fuel, right? because I drive with it unplugged. it makes my idle go up way too much. but it's funny, on cold mornings, the car idles up 1500 and idles down later after a few minutes of driving.

I could take the VAF off my 93 and run down there and see if that fixes it...maybe I'll go ahead and do that.

[Pu241]

yeah, I was thinking of the clearances inside the VAF especially after this unit sat for so long, could have some crud in it!
As I said cheap to check anyway, good luck!

[walth]

yeah, I was thinking of the clearances inside the VAF especially after this unit sat for so long, could have some crud in it!
As I said cheap to check anyway, good luck!

well, I pulled the one from my yellow car and took it down there and swapped them with no luck.

before I swapped them I stuck my finger up through and pushed each one open a little. the one I pulled from my yellow car sounded like there was a spring-loaded switch inside. then I checked my car's and it had nothing. After I cranked on my broken red festy I checked the yellow car's VAF and it had no more spring-loaded switch sound. it sounded like my red festy's VAF.

I don't see how anything could have broken in the process of hooking up that connector and trying to start it...but I certainly hope I didn't break anything.

I even pulled the hose off the intake that comes from the IAC to see if opening it up would bypass the IAC but nothing happened there either.

both of the VAF's had absolutely no resistance. obviously they're spring operated and come back but very smooth. I didn't push them through very far, if that matters? maybe 1.5"-2"?

[wybnrml]

I remember TONYCASH had a problem a while back and it turned out to be one of the female connectors on the VAF plug wasn't contacting a pin on the VAF. Pushed the female connector back into the row and it fixed it. Maybe look at the VAF plug and make sure all the female connectors are pushed to the end and don't have corrosion on them.

[walth]

so apparently the IAC would have little do with it not starting. it is an "output" accessory so to speak after everything is computed through the ECU.

I didn't specifically look for the pins being out of place, but i'd say they were fine. I mean...I was driving happily along for a month and then it cut out on me again. I wouldn't think it would just "move" out of place. but obviously, somewhere, something IS moving out of place since I didn't do anything to fix it each time it's happened. I'll check them tonight when I get it home.

how would I go about resetting the VANE if the FMEM (failure mode effects management) failed the VAF? Or is that to sense that the VAF is faulty? I doubt I have two failed VAF's though...I hope not! It does seem consistent that when the idle gets incredibly too low it will stall and then not restart.

[walth]

so...I'm thinking... I did forget to tell you guys I pulled a fuel pump relay from another festy and it fixed my condition or seemed to. That was the only thing I changed other than the fact that I replaced the fuel pump/sending unit altogether just to find out that mine worked great or better than the other...so I put mine back in. lol.

I'm reading about the control circuit in my shop manual (page 10-01-5 if you want to see what I'm seeing).

It states that: "A resistor and a capacitor are built into the fuel pump relay in addition to the coils. These permit discharge current to flow through the coil in the event that the fuel pump switch is momentarily opened due to the sudden loss of air flow during rapid deceleration. This will provide uninterrupted fuel pump operation."

A couple days after I replaced the fuel pump relay (as stated above), I was going to work, and I was almost there. Everything was fine, came up to a stop light, turned green, started to take off and it was extremely hesitant. I couldn't get it up to speed even to maybe 15-20 mph. Then it stalled going down the highway, so I coasted into the parking lot, popped the clutch in second gear and it was fine ever since until the other day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so I'm thinking, after all that, if the resistor or capacitor in the fuel pump relay is melted and now faulty and not allowing the circuit to close. That or the fuel pump switch in the VAF could be stuck shut after stopping at the stop light or something?

[bhazard]

Just wire the pump to run with key on.

[Pu241]

OK, if second VAF isn't working me thinks odds are long it has anything to do with the VAF. But still check the connector to the VAF for corrosion and make sure the connector is on tight and the wire clip is properly holding the connector in position.

I don't think it is the IAC either, but did some searching and found this:

http://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-idle-air-control-valve-works

At least it answers the question I had asked long ago about how to test the IAC.
I know my IAC has something wrong with it as it makes a continuous noise even when the car is not running but the key is in the "on" position. But it runs pretty well, but I believe that is way my MPG isn't quite what it should be!

[walth]

Just wire the pump to run with key on.

yeah...it'd be nice. but pumps burn up after so much pumping and no flow and it doesn't technically fix the issue.

OK, if second VAF isn't working me thinks odds are long it has anything to do with the VAF. But still check the connector to the VAF for corrosion and make sure the connector is on tight and the wire clip is properly holding the connector in position.

when nate comes by in a few hours I'll mess with the connector. mine doesn't have either of the wire clips but has never been an issue. I made sure it was on very secure. I'll have him fumble with it while I'm starting the car.

does anyone know where each individual ground is? I'm going to hunt for them but all I need to know is:
fuel pump relay ground
fuel pump switch ground
fuel pump ground

I also only have one more relay. I've gotta figure out if that's the problem and why. they're 80-90 bucks a pop and for sure I'm not buying one of those once or twice a month. I'll have a shop solder in some more resistors and capacitors and give that relay some major big huevos.