Engine turns but no start. Symptoms and Solution included (fuel pump)

[walth]

I changed out the relay an hour ago or so and it didn't help. it seemed like I could smell gas. In the couple of minutes I messed with stuff I didn't have time to check for spark...well, I should have taken an extra spark plug with me.

had not thought of this but wonder if it's the disty. seems like a pretty common item to go. especially after reading this, lol: http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=22235

[walth]

festiva is home safely. had a fun time towing it home. my wife drove her car so that I could steer and stop the festy. didn't have any issues.

tomorrow I'll get into the details.

I did take some starter fluid with me before hand and got the car running on just that. it would run for like almost 10 seconds if I left the gas pedal alone. pushing in on the gas pedal while running on SF it would immediately stall. go figure.

however...I've gotta figure out that fuel issue.

[JohnGunn]

I think you've proven a couple of times already that when the car refuses to start the problem is a lack of fuel. If that is the case, it is time to stop looking for other "possible" problems. Concentrate on solving this problem alone. Allowing your mind to consider any other possibility is a fundamental violation of the consistent, logical approach needed to understand and address any complex problem.

With the electrical connection to the ISC disconnected, it still will control the fast idle and bring it down as the engine warms up. The computer does not control that. On the other hand, with the electrical connector disconnected, the computer will not be able to keep the idle speed up when you place an additional load on the engine, e.g. when the headlights are turned on. Beyond that, the ISC doesn't control the flow of fuel, only the amount of air allowed to bypass the throttle place. Forget it.

It is true that there is a pump switch in the VAF meter, but that switch is not activated until the engine actually starts. If the engine is working properly, the fuel pump should be started as soon as you turn the ignition switch to the start position. Once the engine starts and the ignition switch is released, there will be enough air flowing through the VAF meter to have activated its switch, sending power through the fuel pump relay and keeping the pump running as long as the engine does.

You have mentioned several times that a suggested analysis was difficult for you to accept because you couldn't see how it would cause an intermittent problem such as yours. It is true, if a pin is bent and not making contact, it will not normally straighten out and make contact by itself. But you can use the fact that your problem is intermittent to identify parts of the system that are prone to intermittent failure and concentrate on them. Those are mostly either electronic parts or poor electrical connections.

The most obvious suspect in your case is the pump itself. When a pump fails it is not always a complete and sudden failure. It is definitely possible for it to fail intermittently as some part of its electronics reaches a marginal value.

Here is what I would do. The next time the engine refuses to start, take your volt meter and see if you are getting 12 volts to the pump connection (where it enters the tank), while the engine is cranking. If you are getting 12 volts there and the engine still is not starting I would replace the pump. If you are not getting 12 volts I would start tracing that circuit back through the fuel pump relay and the ignition switch looking for a failed connection.

Give this a try and let us know what happens.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[walth]

sorry for my negated'ness stubborn *%% self... but I also am not going to tear down too much at the front door of a restaurant during peak hours. LOL!

I checked the voltage to the plug. I presume the pump would still run on 10 volts...no? cuz I'm getting 10-11 volts to the green&yellows. I know a couple of those wires piggyback/become one in the green insulator and I'm guessing it's the green/yellow's and the green/white's as well.

so I've got voltage but no fire. AND since I'm getting voltage to BOTH green/yellow's that means the vaf AND the relay are good.

so on to the pump...what a pain. Nate and I both pulled that pump and it was working. it was made in 97/98 tho...lol

[walth]

car is fixed. fuel pump replaced. back to normal it seems.

sorry for going other places in my hunt for the issue. I do blame it on having time to sit and think and not verify problems as I thought of them, err...whatever.

BUT at least this thread comes with a solution. lol!

I thought I had found a thread the other day with fuel pumps that fit from other cars. I'm not sure though, I searched this morning and didn't have any luck. Is there such a thread?

[Pu241]

Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/showpost.php?p=367647&postcount=4

[walth]

well, I did find this thread here (http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/sh...ght=fuel+pumps on page 1):

Thanks big_ty2003! Awesome info!

The replacement pumps say the part number is good for
MERCURY CAPRI (1991 - 1994)
MERCURY CAPRI XR2 (1991 - 1994)
MERCURY TRACER (1988 - 1989)
MITSUBISHI MIRAGE (1988 - 1989)
MITSUBISHI MIRAGE L 1985
MITSUBISHI MIRAGE LS (1986 - 1989)
TOYOTA CAMRY DLX (1985 - 1986)
TOYOTA CAMRY LE (1985 - 1986)
TOYOTA CELICA GT (1990 - 1993)
TOYOTA CELICA GTS (1990 - 1992)
TOYOTA CELICA GTS SPORT (1990 - 1993)
TOYOTA CELICA ST (1990 - 1993)
TOYOTA COROLLA FX16 (1987 - 1988)
TOYOTA COROLLA FX16 GTS (1987 - 1988)
TOYOTA COROLLA GTS (1988 - 1991)
TOYOTA PREVIA DLX (1991 - 1993)
TOYOTA PREVIA LE (1991 - 1993)
TOYOTA VAN WAGON CRG (1986 - 1989)
TOYOTA VAN WAGON DX (1986 - 1989)
TOYOTA VAN WAGON LE (1986 - 1989)

I'm guessing first I should buy a big but carriable sized battery and alligator clips to test out all the pumps I find

[walth]

oh yeah...I had another weird incident too today.

I put in the pump and while I was almost done putting all the little screws in gas started going everywhere! I was like WTH!? but it was pushing up out of the tank through the exit so I put the hose on and all was well.

did making contact/ground with the cover and the gas tank give a little juice to the pump? And is that why when you change the fuel filter gas ALWAYS drips out? not an issue but I found it interesting. I've not had that happen before...

[FestYboy]

so...... not the pump, eh? lol, jk

fuel pumps can and do act just like starter motors: work on the bench, but once under load, they fail.

[bikerdude0269]

oh yeah...I had another weird incident too today.

I put in the pump and while I was almost done putting all the little screws in gas started going everywhere! I was like WTH!? but it was pushing up out of the tank through the exit so I put the hose on and all was well.

did making contact/ground with the cover and the gas tank give a little juice to the pump? And is that why when you change the fuel filter gas ALWAYS drips out? not an issue but I found it interesting. I've not had that happen before...

Mine did same thing to cure that problem I took my gas cap off and no more pushing gas up past screws while trying install pump!!!!!

[walth]

lol arty. yeah, I know right. I drove it to work and back and all is well.

Mine did same thing to cure that problem I
took my gas cap off and no more pushing gas up past screws while trying install pump!!!!!

well it wasn't the screws, it was through the pump. That does make more sense than what I had thought. air pressure in the tank pushing down and forcing gas out. hmm

[JohnGunn]

I thought I had found a thread the other day with fuel pumps that fit from other cars. I'm not sure though, I searched this morning and didn't have any luck. Is there such a thread?

Here is a way to find what vehicle models have parts which will fit your '92 Festiva.

Go to www.rockauto.com and look up the part you are interested in under Ford, 1992, Festiva L. Normally there will be a part number for each part listed, e.g. every fuel pump in the list will have its own unique number, which you can click to be shown a list of all the models that part number fits. Some makers are more helpful than others. They will give you the actual model name, e.g.

"GEO --- PRIZM GSI --- (1990 - 1992)"

not just the make followed by a year range, e.g.

"GEO --- (1989 - 1992)."

This will work for any part. Try it.

Thanks for letting us know we were able to help you. It amazes me how few take that trouble.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[walth]

I was wondering which site was being used because I was trying that with my FP's part number at auto zone and advance auto and neither site was working.

appreciated much, I like data. lol.