Idle/Timing problem

[festivBS]

any ideas?

[FestYboy]

did you check your rotor position to make sure it was in the correct position? i just had an EGT with that as an issue. they can be in one of 3 positions.

[festivBS]

yeah we took the cap off and at tdc the rotor is pointing towards plug wire number 1

[FestYboy]

ok, then i'd have to go with shadetree here, pull off your water pump pulley and lower cover and verify where the crank timing mark sits as compaired to the crank pulley timing mark. i wouldn't be surprised to see that the outer ring has shifted.

[festivBS]

isnt the crank pulley keyed though? i didn't know i could put it on wrong and to check this problem i took out a spark plug, found tdc with a wrench on the pulley, and made a new mark. this should fix the problem and i can use that mark right? now i'm just waiting for pay day so i can get another timing light lol

[FestYboy]

oh the pulley IS keyed, but the outer ring is not and can slip on the old rubber isolator thus changing the mechanical timing if you go by the pulley mark. need to check the crank mark.

[festivBS]

awesome next day i have off work i will check this and update back on here. thank you

[JohnGunn]

For Your Eyes Only

awesome next day i have off work i will check this and update back on here. thank you

As you can see, this is pretty long, and I wouldn't be surprised if most people quickly skim over it to get on to the good, short stuff. But my feeling, discovered on those occasions when I have been on the receiving end of the advice game, is that I have never seen a message too long, if it addresses the issues I am currently struggling with. festivaBS, this is for you, and should no one else read it, "For Your Eyes Only".

I'm not sure I should weigh in here since I can't imagine a design in which the mark used to set ignition timing is not permanently LOCKED to the position of the crankshaft. That being said, I'll, nevertheless, venture forth into the uncertain unknown.

First, I remain convinced that the behavior of your engine indicates that your timing is off by a lot, I'd like to say 180 degrees, but that would be just a guess. The fast idle you start off at is the idle that comes when an engine is too retarded and runs fast but with very little power. Then, as you continue to turn the distributor in the direction you are convince it should go, you retard it more and eventually get to the point where the timing becomes so retarded it doesn't have the power to maintain even that powerless fast idle. That results in your "bogging". As you keep retarding you eventually get to the point at which the engine doesn't produce enough power to keep itself running and it dies.

Someone mentioned that you might try adjusting the idle speed. I think you would be better off leaving the idle speed alone for now. It was correctly set the last time the engine was running, and changing it to agree with a clearly mistimed ignition would be a mistake, requiring another adjustment later, when you have gotten the timing properly set.

I must say that what you have done in marking TDC on the crankshaft pulley according to your actual measurement of the position of the 1st piston, sounds like a good way to start finding which of the elements of the timing is off, especially since you don't have access to a timing light. The mark you placed should be close enough to provide a sound foundation to build upon. If, after running the engine, you want to be sure that there has been no rotation of the mark you can easily check it using the same method you used in setting it in the first place. If it produces the same location it hasn't slipped.

Next you would want to align the two cam sprockets with your new TDC. Then see how it runs. If that doesn't produce encouraging changes, I would return to the placement of the wires on the distributor. You seem confident that you know which of the connectors on the top of the distributor cap is for the #1 cylinder. How do you know that the one you are using is correct? Is the cap marked? This is not a trivial question. You have started by finding TDC on cylinder #1 by measuring the position of the piston. (You did measure it at the top of the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke, right?) So, the mark on the crankshaft pulley is right. And the setting of the cam sprockets is based on that, so they will be right.

So if the timing is off it would have to be due to some confusion in the wiring of the distributor. (By the way, is this distributor known by you to be the one that ran this engine correctly in the past? On that topic, the same question should be asked about the computer you are using.) I think it is probably important that you and the computer are in agreement on what wire out of the distributor goes to cylinder #1. (Is it possible to install the distributor in more than one way? Also you need to know that you have placed the rotor correctly on its shaft. If you can't be sure, you could experiment with all of the three possibilities and pick the one you like best. (Can't believe I'm thinking this. There is one correct position for that rotor. If you can't figure out which is correct, there is a massive failure in the design process that is beyond my comprehension.)

So my advice, at this point in your attempt to build a consistent system, starting from the bottom up, is to figure out some way that you can be assured that you and the computer are in agreement about which terminal on the cap is connected to cylinder #1 and which rotor position is correct.

Once that is done you should make sure that from that #1 cap terminal the others in a counter clockwise movement around the top of the cap are for #3, #4, and #2 in that order.

Next, and extremely important, is to make sure the computer knows that you are going to set the timing and that it should remember the results of what you are about to do. That is done by grounding the STI terminal, before you start setting the timing. (Just learned that STI stands for Self-Test Input.) If that is not done or somehow doesn't get through to the computer, it will hold on to whatever settings it had stored from when it was last running. If the computer isn't notified by grounding STI, it will not realize that the distributor is being adjusted and will probably become extremely confused.

I've never read this, but I have somehow become convinced that when you set the timing and it knows you are doing that, it gets its knowledge of the location of TDC for #1 cylinder from the fact that you have set the timing to 10 degrees before TDC. I believe that it must recalculate and remember each change as you turn the distributor and the last position taken while STI is grounded is the one that will remain in its database.

Well, lots of words, but essentially sound, especially for someone without access to a timing light. And whether or not you decided to do any of this, it will do you good to have thought about the problem in this way.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

JohnGunn- i really appreciate all the effort you are putting into helping me. i think the new mark i put on the pulley will be my key to solving this problem i hope. all the things you suggested about checking rotor position and things like that i have done and yes the cap is labeled 1342 in a counter-clock wise rotation. and yes i have been grounding the sti as well as plugging off the vaccum line that you're supposed to do. The computer and distributer are original from when the motor ran before i pulled it.

I have a timing light now but now we have a new problem! i cant get it to run again and i've ran down the problem (broadly). im not getting fuel to the motor but i have got it before so what could cause it to stop? I've checked all electrical and it all seems fine and all my plugs are in all the way. also when i took the fuel line that comes from the pump there was gas in it and i turned the key and heard that the pump itself is working but still i get no fuel at the motor. does this mean my fuel line is clogged somehow or maybe my fuel filter? i replaced the fuel filter with a normal oem replacement filter. all i can think is that the line is clogged but why would it allow gas to get through sometimes and the motor runs but other times it wont let gas through?

[festivBS]

also i kinda thought the same thing about the timing being off by 180 degrees but i have no idea how that could happen or how to fix it. When taking apart the motor i felt like i put everything back how it was or at least should be

[JohnGunn]

all the things you suggested about checking rotor position and things like that i have done and yes the cap is labeled 1342 in a counter-clock wise rotation. and yes i have been grounding the sti as well as plugging off the vaccum line that you're supposed to do. The computer and distributer are original from when the motor ran before i pulled it.

I don't have time to consider and address your starting problem at the moment, but there is something you can do to confirm that the distributor wiring and rotor position are correct.

Turn the engine until the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley and cam sprockets are aligned. Then look at the position of the rotor. The rotor should be pointing about 5 degrees (1/2 of the 10 degree advance at the crankshaft) to the left of the terminal leading to cylinder #1. Knowing that will make me feel better about where we are going. In fact, it might be good to set the distributor to that position now as a best guess of its eventual destination. On second thought, better leave it where it was when it ran until you figure out the starting problem. But, if the engine doesn't start with the starting fluid (see next paragraph), you might want to set the rotor as I said and try it again.

More about starting later, but I would be tempted to try and start the car after spraying some starting fluid into the plenum through the brake booster vacuum opening (putting the hose back on afterward) to prove that your problem is fuel related. If the starting fluid brings it to life, then fuel delivery is the problem.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

As far as the starting problems goes i did that and it started then died so it is definitely fuel delivery. and once i have time to fix the starting problem i'll try what you said to do. Thanks!

[JohnGunn]

also when i took the fuel line that comes from the pump there was gas in it and i turned the key and heard that the pump itself is working but still i get no fuel at the motor. does this mean my fuel line is clogged somehow or maybe my fuel filter? i replaced the fuel filter with a normal oem replacement filter. all i can think is that the line is clogged but why would it allow gas to get through sometimes and the motor runs but other times it wont let gas through?

It sounds to me like your fuel pump is worn out. When that happens it can act in strange ways. It could fail completely or it could die a lingering death, gradually getting weaker until its motor turns over but doesn't produce enough pressure to run the engine.

The fuel system should be under considerable pressure. Not only should gas be in the lines when you disconnect one of them, but it should come spewing out at around 30 psi. It is certainly possible that a clogged line or filter is at fault, but not likely. Check the fuel pump input filter by removing the pump and looking at it. Check the flow of fuel into the filter in the engine compartment by removing the hose going into it and turning the engine over to see if you get a substantial flow of fuel. If there is noticeably better flow before the filter than after it, replace the filter. But, honestly, you should prepare yourself to replace the pump.

From the Rock Auto catalog, Denso fuel pump #9510012 appears to fit both EFI Festivas and the 1992 Capri turbo.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

I was kinda thinking it was the fuel pump too but didn't want to believe it because i put a brand new one in while doing the swap. i got the "walboro" 255 off ebay. i dont really think it is a walboro though cause it isnt extremely loud like true ones that i have heard before.

I'm gonna check the fuel lines and stuff first then probably end up replacing this thing

[JohnGunn]

I was kinda thinking it was the fuel pump too but didn't want to believe it because i put a brand new one in while doing the swap. i got the "walboro" 255 off ebay. i dont really think it is a walboro though cause it isnt extremely loud like true ones that i have heard before.

I'm gonna check the fuel lines and stuff first then probably end up replacing this thing

In that case, a new pump, I would do exactly what you are doing, check every other possibility before buying a new one.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA