Timing Belt Re-Alignment

[JohnGunn]

A couple of days ago I discovered that my timing belt is off by one notch. To check it I used a procedure that did not require removing the bottom timing belt cover. The list of steps taken can be seen at the following URL.

http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420220&postcount=9

Now I would like to use the same procedure to reposition the belt, it's only got a few thousand miles on it.

Here is my question. When the tensioner is pushed away from the belt and locked there, will the belt be loose enough to be removed from the camshaft sprocket, without being able to slide it off the crankshaft sprocket at the same time?

This is a picture of what I'll be looking at.

https://sites.google.com/site/followthevoice/internetfileserver/AspireCamshaftSprocket.jpg

Thanks for your time.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[shadetree]

Yes it will , its very turf but can be done . I do it all the time !!

[Zanzer]

Yup! Like Rob says. All you do is slide it off. Sometimes it helps to alternate between sliding it off a little from the top and then a little from the bottom, but if you have the tensioner at full release it will slide off.

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw that you didn't want to take the bottom cover off.

Although I would recommend taking it off to ensure that everything is on the proper marks. It's easier than you think for the belt to skip a tooth on the bottom pulley and it's not a lot more work to pull the cover.

[JohnGunn]

After I finished my original post I noticed that the sprocket was nicely round at the edges, which should help. I began to think of what I could use to lubricate the movement of the belt over the edge of the sprocket. Something that wouldn't harm the belt and something that wouldn't cause the belt to slip afterward when in use. Soapy water. It shouldn't hurt the belt and can be easily rinsed off after installation.

This realization, together with the encouraging words from shadetree and Zanzer, make me think this is something I will be able to do.

Thanks, Zanzer, for the warning about the possibility of the belt shifting on the crankshaft sprocket in this process. I'll try to avoid this, but after the work is done, I'll definitely turn the engine over a couple of turns and recheck the alignment.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[crazyrog17]

You don't really need the soapy water, you should be fine just tapping it onto the camshaft pulley with a heavy rubber mallet. Just go slowly back and forth with it and it slides on fine

[JohnGunn]

My Apologies to All

I need to both thank all you who were generous enough to respond to my question and to apologize for having been wrong about my timing belt being misaligned by one notch. It isn't.

I guess I just wanted to find it misaligned so much I stopped thinking and jumped to the wrong conclusion. I thought that if it were off, correcting it might eliminate the awful whine my engine has made from the day I bought it 10 months ago. Now I have to go back to having no clue why it whines.

Fortunately, I took pictures during the test. Today, I went back and looked at those pictures again and realized the fundamental mistake I had made.

In hopes you will understand my mistake I'll show you pictures of the camshaft sprocket and the timing pointer and tell you how my mind deceived me.

When I looked at the engine I realized that the camshaft sprocket was a little to the left of the mark on the head. Then I looked at the timing pointer and thought when the camshaft sprocket is rotated a little to the right that will move the timing pointer twice as much to the right. Right? Wrong! Moving the camshaft sprocket does not move the pointer. It is fixed to the engine. It is the crankshaft pulley that will turn. When I realized that, it was clear that the rotation of the camshaft sprocket would bring the yellow TDC notch directly under the pointer. Perfect alignment. And back to square one and life with a maddening whine.

On the good side, the fact that it is possible to re-align the timing belt without removing the lower timing belt cover is presented here for anyone who can find it. My bad luck becomes their good fortune.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[scitzz]

I have had two different hard-to-diagnose-at-the-time whines from baby car. One was from an alternator. The bearings were going bad on the pulley. The other was the pilot bearing on the flywheel...I suppose in the same vane, the water pump could be a possible culprit. One easy check is to remove the accessory belt/s one at a time (as the case may be, AC or no AC,) and see if the noise stops.

[skeeters_keeper]

^^What he said. I would suspect the alternator, before anything else. If you remove the v-belt and the noise stops, that is your most likely solution. There may be other signs, as well: does it change under acceleration? how about under high-electric load? (headlights on/off) does temperature have anything to do with it? etc.

[shadetree]

Mine was the timing belt idler !!

[zoe60]

Mine was the timing belt was too tight. Don't run it long with the v belt off, your water pump will not be going.

[nitrofarm]

John do you have power steering? They are infamous for whining.Do you have AC? If you do,one simple test is turn on the AC. If the noise stops when the AC clutch engages.It means the clutch bearings are bad. Let us know-

[JohnGunn]

I have had two different hard-to-diagnose-at-the-time whines from baby car. One was from an alternator. The bearings were going bad on the pulley. The other was the pilot bearing on the flywheel...I suppose in the same vane, the water pump could be a possible culprit. One easy check is to remove the accessory belt/s one at a time (as the case may be, AC or no AC,) and see if the noise stops.

Thanks, scitzz. This is good information. I will check the alternator as you suggest. That is easy enough to get to, but how did you locate the whine coming from the pilot bearing?

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

^^What he said. I would suspect the alternator, before anything else. If you remove the v-belt and the noise stops, that is your most likely solution. There may be other signs, as well: does it change under acceleration? how about under high-electric load? (headlights on/off) does temperature have anything to do with it? etc.

Thanks for the suggestions, Nate. I'll expand my investigations to include them.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

Mine was the timing belt idler !!

I agree. The tensioner bearing is a likely culprit. How did you pin point it as the source of your whine?

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

Mine was the timing belt was too tight. Don't run it long with the v belt off, your water pump will not be going.

Thanks for giving me the benefit of your experience. I have read about this several places over the Internet. But I couldn't figure out how this would be possible on a Festiva.

According to the timing belt installation procedure, the spring sets the tension. It is not an adjustable item. How did you fix it? Install a new spring, or just push the tensioner wheel away from the belt a little bit, before tightening it? I'm open to all suggestions. I'm determined to get this fixed. My fortunes rise and fall with the condition of my ride.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[scitzz]

Thanks, scitzz. This is good information. I will check the alternator as you suggest. That is easy enough to get to, but how did you locate the whine coming from the pilot bearing?

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

That is a LONG story

To make it short, after wearing out a clutch pedal, and two clutch cables, I figured out that the clutch pedal was slowly getting harder to push as I was getting used to pushing it. Let me explain.

I drive Baby car almost 200 miles a night. According to my calculations, it took me almost two years to figure out the bearing was slowly, VERY slowly dieing. The whine got louder just as slowly.

So, one day, some jack ass sabotaged my vehicle. Another very long story. He drained my trans fluid. I burned out the trans.

Dean, RIP, sold me a 4 speed tranny for twenty bucks. Price of gas for his diesel to the part. I decided to replace everything else in there while I was at it. Bought all the stuff. Took it apart. Clutch was worn about 2 1000andths from a new one. All looked good. Except the pilot bearing. Balls were falling out of it. Slapped a new one in, along with a new throw out bearing. Left the rest alone. When I put it all together, and got back on the road, I was AMAZED at how easy pushing the clutch in was and how quiet my car was all of a sudden!

Close to the same story on the alternator. I first noticed the whine in 2006, but the alt didn't get loud until a year, and 50,000 miles later. The alt belt broke, and when the light popped on, my car got almost as quiet as a grave. That one wasn't so hard to figure out in hindsight. The main thing was that the change was so slow, I got used to it as it was happening.

[scitzz]

I agree. The tensioner bearing is a likely culprit. How did you pin point it as the source of your whine?

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

Remove all ACC belts, and the noise still comes from that side? Ingenuity and logic.....and luck! It might have been the water pump, but for $30 bucks you replace both an viola!

[JohnGunn]

When I put it all together, and got back on the road, I was AMAZED at how easy pushing the clutch in was and how quiet my car was all of a sudden!

Thanks for the thorough response. To the guy desperate for answers no good response can be too long.

I've never actually seen the inside of a Festiva clutch, so I went to my manuals to inform myself of where the flywheel pilot bearing is and what it does. From those diagrams it looks to be the bearing which supports the transmission input shaft where it ends inside the flywheel. (Please correct me if any of this is wrong.)

If that is the case, then, the sound of a failed bearing would depend on whether the the flywheel was rotating around the input shaft or not. A bearing that isn't being used probably won't make much noise.

It seems to me that the only times a pilot bearing is in use is when the transmission is in gear and the clutch is disengaged (pedal pressed to the floor). (I'm not sure what happens when the transmission is in neutral.) Whenever the clutch is engaged (pedal released) the flywheel and the transmission input shaft are locked together and the pilot bearing is not in use.

Since my whine is consistent, changing only with the speed of the engine, and doesn't seem to depend on the position of the clutch pedal at all, I am guessing the pilot bearing is not the source of my noise.

Again, I stress, please correct me if I am wrong in any of this, or if the whine you experienced contradicts any of my assumptions. As you may be able to tell, this is all VERY important to me and, at this point, I value highly all the help I can get.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA